don't study openings until level 2000?

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kindaspongey
MickinMD wrote:

... The USCF and other organizations have long stuck it to lower rated players for the financial advantage of pro players writing books.  There have been books over the past half century with titles similar to Open your game like Bobby Fischer, Play Kasparov's Openings, which is potentially awful advice because their variation choices may no be suited to lower-rated players. ...

Well, I have seen books such as Kasparov's Opening Repertoire by Leonid Shamkovich & Eric Schiller and Learn from Bobby Fischer's Greatest Games by Eric Schiller from time to time, but do you think it would be fair to take those as reflective of the sort of opening book that USCF usually sells?

kindaspongey
bong711 wrote:

I prefer opening manuals like MCO, FCO, NCO, etc. ...

I do not think any of those have been revised since 2009.

"... [Modern Chess Openings (15th ed.)] pretends to be everything for everybody, but it isn’t; it pretends to be up-to-date and relevant in all chapters, but it isn’t; it should be a good book, but it isn’t. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2008)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140626165820/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen110.pdf

"... For new players, I cannot recommend books that use [an encyclopedic] type of presentation [of opening theory], because the explanatory prose that elaborates typical plans and ideas is usually absent, thus leaving the student without any clear idea why certain moves are played or even preferred over other apparently equivalent moves. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2010)

It should perhaps be mentioned that FCO is not really like MCO and NCO.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140626173432/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen128.pdf

The_Chin_Of_Quinn
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... Books are written because they sell, not because they're appropriate. ...

Is selling perhaps easier for books that are not denounced as inappropriate?

 I'm guessing there are more books on the opening than anything else. It's what buyers (and beginners) want, and they're relatively easy to write.

Do you have experience with the writing of various sorts of chess books?

A database dumb is easy, so I assume an opening book is easy. Of course a quality book, no matter what kind, takes a lot of effort.

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

So a few players who have made that mistake warn against it...

At least in your case (reading Watson and Kosten opening books), is there any reason to doubt that your mistake was buying the wrong sort of opening books?

My comment was in the context of you asking whether it's harder to sell opening books due to there being so many recommendations against studying the opening. By starting my sentence with "so" I'm dismissing it e.g. "so what." I suggest it's trivial because new players intuitively think openings are what needs to be studied.

But to reply to your next question, yes, and that's why I don't say things like "don't study opening  until ____ rating."

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

practically no one listens (apparently).

Could it be that these few players are not correctly describing a mistake that is generally perceived by authorities?

Of course. Although again, this was more in the context of you suggesting non-opening books are easier to sell.

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

You see it all the time, a beginner asking for the one new opening that will completely change his results. Or some noob on a Carlsen youtube video commenting how Carlsen is the best because he has the best openings.

Beginners instinctively believe that openings are the first thing you should study, and are also the most important.

What is wrong with correcting such mistakes, without claiming that it is a mistake to buy an opening book?

It's not a mistake per se, it's just not as useful as other books. However, again, if that's what a new player enjoys, if that's what motivates them to learn something new every day, then that's what's best for them for now. (Assuming they're casual enthusiasts who aren't willing to work someone else's study plan).

 

TheAdultProdigy
Shakespeare-Voltaire wrote:

don't study openings until level 2000?

Yep, unless the openings you play are some of the more theoretical ones, in which case you may have to start learning a little here and there as you enter the 1800's; but no need to go crazy.

kindaspongey
WeakChessPlayedSlow wrote:
As a 2000, I think that even 2000 is a bit early to seriously study openings. 2200 seems more accurate.

"It is important for club players to build up a suitable opening repertoire. ..." - GM Artur Yusupov (2010)

kindaspongey
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

 I'm guessing there are more books on the opening than anything else. It's what buyers (and beginners) want, and they're relatively easy to write.

Do you have experience with the writing of various sorts of chess books?

A database dumb is easy, so I assume an opening book is easy. Of course a quality book, no matter what kind, takes a lot of effort.

Is there a reason to assume a book on the opening is not a quality book?

kindaspongey
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... Books are written because they sell, not because they're appropriate. ...

Is selling perhaps easier for books that are not denounced as inappropriate?

... "so what." ...

If appropriate opening books are easier to sell than inappropriate opening books, then doesn't that provide writers and sellers with some motivation to prefer appropriate opening books over inappropriate opening books?

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... new players intuitively think openings are what needs to be studied. ...

If authorities identify a book as inappropriate, could there be a resulting loss of some sales?

kindaspongey
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote (~22 hours ago in #33):
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... Books are written because they sell, not because they're appropriate. ...

Is selling perhaps easier for books that are not denounced as inappropriate?

I'm guessing there are more books on the opening than anything else. It's what buyers (and beginners) want, and they're relatively easy to write.

So a few players who have made that mistake warn against it... practically no one listens (apparently). You see it all the time, a beginner asking for the one new opening that will completely change his results. Or some noob on a Carlsen youtube video commenting how Carlsen is the best because he has the best openings.

Beginners instinctively believe that openings are the first thing you should study, and are also the most important.

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... I don't say things like "don't study opening  until ____ rating." ...

Does your post #33 (about 22 hours ago) indicate a distinction between appropriate and inappropriate opening books?

kindaspongey

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... You see it all the time, a beginner asking for the one new opening that will completely change his results. Or some noob on a Carlsen youtube video commenting how Carlsen is the best because he has the best openings.

Beginners instinctively believe that openings are the first thing you should study, and are also the most important.

What is wrong with correcting such mistakes, without claiming that it is a mistake to buy an opening book?

... It's not a mistake per se, it's just not as useful as other books. However, ...

Didn't you use the word, "mistake", in your post #33 about 22 hours ago?

kindaspongey

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... Books are written because they sell, not because they're appropriate. ...

Is selling perhaps easier for books that are not denounced as inappropriate?

... you asking whether it's harder to sell opening books due to there being so many recommendations against studying the opening. ...

I was not asking that. I would not make any reference to "so many recommendations against studying the opening".

The_Chin_Of_Quinn

... you suggesting non-opening books are easier to sell. ...

I was not intending to suggest that. I was trying to suggest a possible motivation for writers and sellers to aim for the appropriate.

kindaspongey
[COMMENT DELETED]
Daybreak57

I think openings matter to the point where you'd like to practice the main lines so you have a good base for the future if you so choose to desire to become expert and beyond but I don't see anything wrong with experimenting every once in a while though I do firmly believe that just randomly making moves doesn't help much if you are not already a strong player.  I think, regardless of level, one should learn some basic openings and stick to them.  Randomly making innocuous little pawn moves, in the beginning, doesn't help your chess intuition if you are barely starting to learn how to play and around 1000 or below.  I know because it didn't help me...  Part of the fun of chess I guess is playing against the queens gambits and taking the free pawn and trying to see if you can wing it and keep that free pawn!  Of course, I don't play that away against the queen's gambit, it just seems that everyone I get paired with plays that way, so I learn new modern ways for people to attempt to take that pawn and keep it.  Sometimes I win the game outright, sometimes I blunder and lose the game, but it's all in the process of learning.

 

f6 isn't usually a move that should be played by black, but at the same time, if black plays it, he is not immediately losing, as someone pointed out.  But what I am saying is if you make moves like that at the start of the game you are not applying basic chess principles.  One should learn at the start, why f6 isn't a good way to defend the pawn on e5 after an e4 e5 opening, and one should learn the way a general game occurs after e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4.  They really shouldn't be concerned with why the moves are being made past the part where white is trying to attack the weak f7 square and the weak pawn on e5.  Black is ultimately trying to play d5 in this position so that he can equalize the game, and white is trying to prevent this.  The reason for that is simple. d5 is the best place for black to counterstrike, simply because that is the place where he can get most of his control.  Just count the pieces that are pointing there in that opening.  That is why in some openings like the maroczy bind white will use his pawns to prevent black from playing d5, though such a move is not without its consequences.  Part of learning chess is learning that when you try and gain something you lose a little somewhere else.  It's up to the chess player to make the correct decision in creating more gains than losses in a position, especially in the area of the board where it matters.  

 

Truth be told, a beginner at chess will look at what I just said, and most likely, say, "Bah, I don't need to control d5 as black in that opening.  I can just play whatever I want."  I know this because I am kind of teaching a guy how to get better at chess by telling him what he is doing wrong and often times he does not listen to what I say or even any of us.  There are three of us telling him stuff, and he doesn't listen.

Maybe it's just him though, as I am no teacher, and this is actually the first person I have attempted to teach.  I teach him by playing him and telling him why the move he just made was a bad move.  He doesn't study on his own so unless we start playing a whole lot more I don't think he will ever improve.  If he listened to what we said maybe we'd start to play more interesting games.

 

In a nutshell, I think openings should be studied at all levels, especially at the beginner level because if all you do is play random moves you aren't going to learn as much as you would if you knew the basic ideas on the most basic Italian type openings, like why don't you generally play f6 as black to defend the pawn on e5 that is being attacked by the knight, etc.  Don't get me wrong a lot of it has to do with learning tactics.  I personally need to learn more tactics to get better at this juncture of my chess training.  But, I think it is a mistake to just play random moves all the time without really studying basic chess principles.  Maybe not necessarily exactly opening lines, but basic chess principles.  The problem is I never heard of a book that talks about what I just said, so you pretty much almost have to study at least some basic opening lines to learn the basic ideas behind the openings, perhaps with a guide.  Two books that are good are FCO (Fundamental Chess Openings) and Reuben Fine's book on openings, but I think it is said somewhere that Reuben Fine's book is outdated and FCO should be used instead, but I gleaned different nuggets from both books.  So, really, you, and only you, should be the ultimate factor in what books you decide to pay money for.  Another source would be the opening encyclopedia if you have the money, though I didn't find that to be as useful as the other two at my level because the opening encyclopedia is just an index of games categorized by opening type.  I can't remember if there are notes on some of the games or not...

solskytz

<The_Chin> (on post #41) - right. A little of everything...

When a player is rated around 1500, give or take, it's probably useful to become familiar with the main lines of most openings, 3-4 moves deep (I'm still discovering the names of openings - only this last year I learned what a Bogo-Indian was - I really had no idea). You want to be able to at least recognize the names of most openings, so that you can understand what others are talking about, on the most basic level.

And then, again when a player is rated 1700 or 1450, it's not too bad to study some special variation deeply - not because you hope to actually play it against someone of your level (which may or may not happen) - but just for the pleasure of studying it, seeing some nice tactics or positional ideas etc. 

Study it in order to learn the chess inside it, and maybe draw ideas and conclusions that can become useful in other types of positions (such as - the knight on d5 in the Sicilian, and then you play white against a King's Indian, and can sometimes plant a knight on d5 in THAT opening late in the middle game, for example after Ne6 and dxe6 - you get the idea).

Some people obsess about the openings, or show unusual erudition about that phase of the game, and are only rated 1400, if that - you got to respect it that they really like that part of the game - and also to recognize it, that it won't ever make them stronger than 1400...

Some people ENJOY studying the openings because it comes easier to them, but don't really want to face the prospect of working on (say) endgames, midgame strategy, typical plans, tactics (mostly) etc. - maybe they don't find that type of work quite as enjoyable. On one hand, it's good to do what you enjoy and the hell with the results (not everyone must care about becoming a 1800 rated player, or a master etc.); on the other hand, one can say that it's like someone who dropped a coin in the dark, but looks for it under a lamppost because it's more comfortable to look for it there (there is light, but the coin is of course elsewhere). 

AIM-AceMove

Not sure about <2000 far from there, but <1800 players should definetely focus mainly on tactics, stamina and calculation. I have won lost positions and lost a won positions just because of calculation failure or just was too tired regardles of the openings.

The_Chin_Of_Quinn
kindaspongey wrote:

 

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... Books are written because they sell, not because they're appropriate. ...

Is selling perhaps easier for books that are not denounced as inappropriate?

... you asking whether it's harder to sell opening books due to there being so many recommendations against studying the opening. ...

I was not asking that. I would not make any reference to "so many recommendations against studying the opening".

The_Chin_Of_Quinn

... you suggesting non-opening books are easier to sell. ...

I was not intending to suggest that. I was trying to suggest a possible motivation for writers and sellers to aim for the appropriate.

That's the problem with removing 1 sentence of my post then commenting on it, it's so frivolous and out of context you've even forgotten you've done it yourself. Re-read #32 this is where you make that suggestion. (I'm not saying you believe, it, I realize it's just a throw away hypothetical.)

---

I haven't read your other most recent replies. Giving your knee jerk thoughts to single sentences without context is not a conversation, and it's asking me to do all the work, carrying both sides of the conversation, especially when (apparently) you can't even recall what you've said.

Cybord2000

unorthodox chessopenings is a good one by schiller

      Think the "mafia defense" would be hard to throughly study and perfect.

WeakChessPlayedSlow
kindaspongey wrote:
WeakChessPlayedSlow wrote:
As a 2000, I think that even 2000 is a bit early to seriously study openings. 2200 seems more accurate.

"It is important for club players to build up a suitable opening repertoire. ..." - GM Artur Yusupov (2010)

Worked well for me so far. 

kindaspongey

 

 Daybreak57 wrote:

... I think it is a mistake to just play random moves all the time without really studying basic chess principles.  Maybe not necessarily exactly opening lines, but basic chess principles.  The problem is I never heard of a book that talks about what I just said, ...

"... For beginning players, [Discovering Chess Openings by John Emms] will offer an opportunity to start out on the right foot and really get a feel for what is happening on the board. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2006) https://web.archive.org/web/20140627114655/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen91.pdf

 Daybreak57 wrote:

... so you pretty much almost have to study at least some basic opening lines to learn the basic ideas behind the openings, perhaps with a guide.  Two books that are good are FCO (Fundamental Chess Openings) and Reuben Fine's book on openings, but I think it is said somewhere that Reuben Fine's book is outdated

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708112658/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review315.pdf

 Daybreak57 wrote:

and FCO should be used instead,

"... [Fundamental Chess Openings by Paul van der Sterren] is not particularly suited for players who are just starting out. I would imagine players rated at least 1400-1500 would get the most benefit from this volume. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2009) https://web.archive.org/web/20140626173432/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen128.pdf

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/FCO_Fundamental_Chess_Openings.pdf

 Daybreak57 wrote:

but I gleaned different nuggets from both books.  So, really, you, and only you, should be the ultimate factor in what books you decide to pay money for.

Having a similar opinion, I think that, before buying a book, whenever possible, one should consult reviews with details about the contents. For many books, online samples are available.

 Daybreak57 wrote:

Another source would be the opening encyclopedia if you have the money, though I didn't find that to be as useful as the other two at my level because the opening encyclopedia is just an index of games categorized by opening type.  I can't remember if there are notes on some of the games or not...

"... For new players, I cannot recommend books that use [an encyclopedic] type of presentation [of opening theory], because the explanatory prose that elaborates typical plans and ideas is usually absent, thus leaving the student without any clear idea why certain moves are played or even preferred over other apparently equivalent moves. ... For inexperienced players, I think the model that bases opening discussions on more or less complete games that are fully annotated, though with a main focus on the opening and early middlegame, is the ideal. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2010)

"... Everyman Chess has started a new series aimed at those who want to understand the basics of an opening, i.e., the not-yet-so-strong players. ... I imagine [there] will be a long series based on the premise of bringing the basic ideas of an opening to the reader through plenty of introductory text, game annotations, hints, plans and much more. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2002)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627055734/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen38.pdf

kindaspongey

 

 kindapspongey wrote (in #32):
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote:

... Books are written because they sell, not because they're appropriate. ...

Is selling perhaps easier for books that are not denounced as inappropriate?

 

kindaspongey wrote (in #54):
The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote [in #47]:

... you asking whether it's harder to sell opening books due to there being so many recommendations against studying the opening. ...

I was not asking that. I would not make any reference to "so many recommendations against studying the opening".

The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote [in #47]:

... you suggesting non-opening books are easier to sell. ...

I was not intending to suggest that. I was trying to suggest a possible motivation for writers and sellers to aim for the appropriate.

 

 The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote (in #60):  

... Re-read #32 this is where you make that suggestion.

My post #54 (like your posts, #47 and #60) reproduced #32, and it is reproduced again above, enabling anyone (who cares) to decide for themselves what #32 does and does not suggest.

 The_Chin_Of_Quinn wrote (in #60):

(I'm not saying you believe, it, I realize it's just a throw away hypothetical.) ...

In your post #47, it did not seem clear to me that you regarded yourself as having only a hypothetical notion of what I believe. Consequently, it seemed appropriate to me to notify you (and anyone else who might be following the discussion) that

"I was not intending to suggest that" non-opening books are easier to sell,

and that

I WAS "trying to suggest a possible motivation for writers and sellers to aim for the appropriate."

Daybreak57
kindaspongey wrote:

 

 Daybreak57 wrote:

... I think it is a mistake to just play random moves all the time without really studying basic chess principles.  Maybe not necessarily exactly opening lines, but basic chess principles.  The problem is I never heard of a book that talks about what I just said, ...

"... For beginning players, [Discovering Chess Openings by John Emms] will offer an opportunity to start out on the right foot and really get a feel for what is happening on the board. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2006) https://web.archive.org/web/20140627114655/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen91.pdf

 Daybreak57 wrote:

... so you pretty much almost have to study at least some basic opening lines to learn the basic ideas behind the openings, perhaps with a guide.  Two books that are good are FCO (Fundamental Chess Openings) and Reuben Fine's book on openings, but I think it is said somewhere that Reuben Fine's book is outdated

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708112658/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review315.pdf

 Daybreak57 wrote:

and FCO should be used instead,

"... [Fundamental Chess Openings by Paul van der Sterren] is not particularly suited for players who are just starting out. I would imagine players rated at least 1400-1500 would get the most benefit from this volume. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2009) https://web.archive.org/web/20140626173432/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen128.pdf

http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/FCO_Fundamental_Chess_Openings.pdf

 Daybreak57 wrote:

but I gleaned different nuggets from both books.  So, really, you, and only you, should be the ultimate factor in what books you decide to pay money for.

Having a similar opinion, I think that, before buying a book, whenever possible, one should consult reviews with details about the contents. For many books, online samples are available.

 Daybreak57 wrote:

Another source would be the opening encyclopedia if you have the money, though I didn't find that to be as useful as the other two at my level because the opening encyclopedia is just an index of games categorized by opening type.  I can't remember if there are notes on some of the games or not...

"... For new players, I cannot recommend books that use [an encyclopedic] type of presentation [of opening theory], because the explanatory prose that elaborates typical plans and ideas is usually absent, thus leaving the student without any clear idea why certain moves are played or even preferred over other apparently equivalent moves. ... For inexperienced players, I think the model that bases opening discussions on more or less complete games that are fully annotated, though with a main focus on the opening and early middlegame, is the ideal. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2010)

"... Everyman Chess has started a new series aimed at those who want to understand the basics of an opening, i.e., the not-yet-so-strong players. ... I imagine [there] will be a long series based on the premise of bringing the basic ideas of an opening to the reader through plenty of introductory text, game annotations, hints, plans and much more. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (2002)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627055734/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen38.pdf

I stand corrected.happy.png  I'm glad your hear.  Since I am teaching two people how to play chess, I will take a peak at the exploring chess openings books, because maybe they may present a better approach to opening choice than me for a beginner.  I play the Sicilian, and I am pretty sure that is not an opening for a beginner.  Nor is Petrov's Defense, as I used to play that opening before it was suggested I play the Sicilian.  A new book can't hurt my chess can't it wink.png.  At least I'll get to see what I missed out on when I was learning how to play chess 16 years ago.  Also, I am probably not even a 1400 player yet, so maybe I was reading books too advanced for me!  We shall see!