Draw or Win?

CuddlyMonkey should obviously be banned from posting - as should any person who senselessly hurls insults at people.

Oh no he shouldn't. When Mr. Math Man talks the way he does, then I'll pick up where CM leaves off. 

<Lola> I was referring to the way <Monkey> expressed himself up to about page 12 - calling a number of people "stupid" and "idiots" - not only Math Man. 

As a comment addressed to him by a staff member was enough for him to change his behavior towards others, you can safely ignore that part of my post where I advised banning him. 

.....removing "stoopit" from #454.

Certainly an improvement :-) !!!!

....that baby girl is adorable !

Absolutely. She's 11 1/2 already... I'm too lazy to include an up to date photo (besides, I don't always come out that well in photos... this one was really good, some 3-4 years ago...)

In german we have a beautiful expression for people who like to follow regulations, instructions and laws in a pedantic, exaggerating manner: Paragraph riders. 

It is kind of senseless to argue around this since it was already shown many, many pages ago that in practical decisions, FIDE arbiters should declare the game a draw. It does not  matter in a practical situation what exact words are used in the rulebook, because obviously that is how the situation should be handled if it occurs. Maybe the words should be changed if some people do not understand the real world but only paragraphs and perfect correctness. Some people here seem to have the bigger-brother(sister)syndrome (cannotleaveanargumentbeforetheopponentadmitsheswrong).

 

Kind regards

Well, i did not say the rulebook does not matter. I just said the words chosen in the rulebook do not matter if it is clear to arbiters how to handle the situation. And i also must say that the words used in the rulebook are not as clear as many people claim. (Probably i willbe told that it was explained a lot of times and blah..) But if you take 6.9 and 1.1., it sounds too me as if a draw was the correct decision even after the rulebook. But maybe it leaves some room for wrong interpretation. But maybe the words that are chosen should be changed if people do not understand how it works. 

 

And probably it was already posted, but still last but not least: 

 

Some people here seem to have the bigger-brother(sister)syndrome

I don't have that...but I was traumatized by it.

I remember when my brother would say no means yes and yes means no. Then he'd say, "You wanna get hit ?" I'd say, "No, I mean yes, I mean no....mom !"

or, when they'd say, Okay you can come to the beach with us if you can say the alphabet. "A, B, C....X, Y, Z ! Yay ! I did it"...."Wrong....now get outta here !" 

Draw. White's intention to take the pawn on h6 was shown when he touched the king. Then his flag fell. But the intention of taking the h6 pawn makes it impossible for black to win, so although white's flag fell it is a draw.

h7*

It is! Common sense tells me that if someone is obviously trying to play a move, but you're using the clock-rules against the poor guy, who you're trying to flag based on tehnicallities( like 1sec differences) in a totally drawn pos, it should be against the rules

Apparently you did not understand anything.

That would apply ONLY if every move, both sides involved, was unique- since then "Black could not win by any series of legal moves".

Well... "would have been able to force a position" does not really translate as such, but anyway.

There is no place for "common sense" in the rules of the game. The moves may be totally illogical, rules do have to consider these moves as well.

draw

I have read the whole lot, and I went from thinking its a black win to its definitely a draw.
The main decider is the position on which the end state of the game is to be judged when the time runs out, and since the move by White is legally 'made' even though it is not 'completed' the actual position of the pieces on the board is legal and is the position? Is it not?
Do the rules define the position otherwise? Surely the position is the current placement of all pieces in which no illegal 'move' has been made?

In which case time runs out on whites turn as he/she has not 'completed' the move by pressing the clock and black has insufficient material so it's a draw.

Edit: Surely the position is the current placement of all pieces in which no illegal move been 'made'?


If the 'position' is not defined then you are making an assumption either way - the position is either after the last move is 'made' or 'completed'.
Either way I'd say it's more logical to assume it's after the move is made as it fits the other rules and doesn't require moving back of pieces for a legal move which is not in the rules.

On the other hand you could conclude that an illegal move can be 'made' but not 'completed'? So the 'position' would not take into account an illegal move and perhaps does not take into account any move 'made' and only moves 'completed'?
In which case the 'position' would be regarded as before white moved and would therefore be a black win?

You tell me.

In section 4, the rules define the point at which a move is 'made'. And it also says that once a move that meets the requirements of section 3 is 'made', the move cannot be changed or 'unmade'.

Then in section 6, where the rules about timekeeping are discussed, It defines when a player's move is 'complete'. In short, it's the point where, after he makes his move, the move he made produces a checkmate, stalemate, or he presses the clock.

Where from that can we infer that a move not 'completed' must be 'unmade' if the clock runs out? It doesn't say that anywhere. Changing or undoing a move that was made is against the rules.

It just means that his time for making moves ran out after he made the last move, and the game is over.

You can use the same argument to support the rulings that that Glissen guy makes regarding applying the touch rules after games that end similarly, but when the move was not yet finished being 'made' when the flag falls.

If he just touched the piece before the flag fell, his next move must use that piece. So when determining the outcome (loss/draw), you should only consider (for that next move) moves that involve that piece - because those are the only possible moves.