Draw or Win?

I have read the whole lot, and I went from thinking its a black win to its definitely a draw.
The main decider is the position on which the end state of the game is to be judged when the time runs out, and since the move by White is legally 'made' even though it is not 'completed' the actual position of the pieces on the board is legal and is the position? Is it not?
Do the rules define the position otherwise? Surely the position is the current placement of all pieces in which no illegal 'move' has been made?

In which case time runs out on whites turn as he/she has not 'completed' the move by pressing the clock and black has insufficient material so it's a draw.

Edit: Surely the position is the current placement of all pieces in which no illegal move been 'made'?


If the 'position' is not defined then you are making an assumption either way - the position is either after the last move is 'made' or 'completed'.
Either way I'd say it's more logical to assume it's after the move is made as it fits the other rules and doesn't require moving back of pieces for a legal move which is not in the rules.

On the other hand you could conclude that an illegal move can be 'made' but not 'completed'? So the 'position' would not take into account an illegal move and perhaps does not take into account any move 'made' and only moves 'completed'?
In which case the 'position' would be regarded as before white moved and would therefore be a black win?

You tell me.

In section 4, the rules define the point at which a move is 'made'. And it also says that once a move that meets the requirements of section 3 is 'made', the move cannot be changed or 'unmade'.

Then in section 6, where the rules about timekeeping are discussed, It defines when a player's move is 'complete'. In short, it's the point where, after he makes his move, the move he made produces a checkmate, stalemate, or he presses the clock.

Where from that can we infer that a move not 'completed' must be 'unmade' if the clock runs out? It doesn't say that anywhere. Changing or undoing a move that was made is against the rules.

It just means that his time for making moves ran out after he made the last move, and the game is over.

You can use the same argument to support the rulings that that Glissen guy makes regarding applying the touch rules after games that end similarly, but when the move was not yet finished being 'made' when the flag falls.

If he just touched the piece before the flag fell, his next move must use that piece. So when determining the outcome (loss/draw), you should only consider (for that next move) moves that involve that piece - because those are the only possible moves.

@blastforme: Those explanations are eloquently stated and, I think, most in keeping with the spirit and letter of the rules of Chess insofar as they are able.

I'm holding on with soft slippery fingers (a win) but I will never-ever let this one go.

It's 'cuz my mind returns to FIDE and I keep saying to me that they have this one all wrong. It's come down to that I don't really like hearing people protecting this ruling.

'Cuz the rule states sush & such doesn't make it right.

Now we've been going at it for nearly 500 posts and that should say FIDE needs to reconvene, revisit, and rescind this awful Dewey decimal. 

Normally when you have a strong opinion about something, you're most likely wrong! So vague questions, vague answers...

The intention of forcing the position is enough. Clocks don't matter. 

Clocks don't matter.

Clocks Do TOO aman !

I'm sick of my thread. THe first half of this thread had sensible people making sensible arguments, but now we're just repeating the same thing.

LOCKING!

Tracking turned off!

OH and just to conclude:

DRAW

You do that ?....and I will never-ever forgive you !

I'm about to write some verses on this and my disregard for FIDE....would you wait ?

Can an OP really lock his own thread?

Why doesn't someone contact FIDE and ask them? It's their rules so their answer would be final.

****

Check my pulse

it's like the clock

make your move

(listen....) tick tock

I'm FIDE the man

that's who I am

I made a moat

so you can't vote

I shake the hand

that shook the hand

of those with bread

to stay ahead 

You run my life

with a butter knife

I'm here upset

and can't forget

pleez change your rule

I'm all confuzed

I thought I'd won

but you say "Lose".

....what do I do ?

****

You draw.

AHHHHHH !!!

I'm gonna go outside and run down the road screaming !!

Well that's that then.