FM Borislav Ivanov Disqualified

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billyblatt
paulgottlieb wrote:

Billy boy, your definition of admissible evidence and standards of proof seem to be drawn from American criminal law, or perhaps television dramas loosely based on American criminal law. There is no reason to assume that these are the relevant standards in a case involving a dispute between the Bulgarian Chess Federation and one of its members, or to any cheating case at all. They're certainly nothing like the standards that apply in the tens of thousands of civil cases that American courts adjudicate every year. In fact, civil courts almost anywhere is the world certainly would admit the statistical evidence that is being raised against Ivanov. Statistical evidence and probability are used in determining cases every day.

And on the practical side, any time an adult player with a pretty well established performance level suddenly begins to perform about 400 ELO points above that level, only an idiot would fail to recognize cheating.

 Herr Gottlieb, that is one thorough list of assumptions...

  What the issue here is what is the right way of doing things. 

Now, perhaps the way the Bulgurians did it is perfectly ok. But that doesn't stop anyone from asking questions. It is perfectly ok to say that it could have been handled more appropriately, perhaps by the standards of the International Community. 

By all means the Bulgurians are free to do what they want.

So maybe I am misinformed and I haven't read the official statement of the Bulgarian Chess Federation: perhaps they did consult a lawyer asking if they have the right to ban someone based on a few games.

However, it would be mob justice, if they simply complied to the complaints of the GMs. There has to be a due process. 

I don't know about point jumps, whether anyone who performs better is a cheater.

 I still think they just succumbed to the pressure.


billyblatt
Irontiger wrote:

There is an easy way to find out.

If the Bulgarian's federation made an unfair and unlawful decision, Ivanov will sue them and win. Otherwise, he will just shut the hell up for four months and then come back stealing money prize from second-class tournaments until his next ban.

My bet is on the second option.

maybe just a hasty decision...it depends on how much money Ivanov has and if he can afford a lawyer. It is tough to single handedly to take on an Institution. People just avoid that kind of prolonged scrutiny.  Silence is not always a sign of guilt.

WanderingPuppet

Has anybody checked him for a bluetooth device  --- i.e. such as the one indicated here:

http://www.gizmag.com/brickhouse-security-invisible-bluetooth-earpiece/13485/

jonnin

For no good reason this reminds me of the cycling scandal last year.  Years of denial and winning until technology caught up with the cheaters.

I think in the end over the board chess will find a way to handle this.  We have the tech already... we can block and jam most forms of comms.  That may be the answer, rather than trying to detect something.  Of course you have to handle old-school stuff too, so spectation would have to be via camera only or someone in the crowd could be feeding a cheater.  But a totally jammed and electronically isolated room with only 2 or 3 moderators and the 2 players.... is not hard to rig up. 

Irontiger

jonnin, it's impossible to have one arbiter per player in small tournaments.

Sooner or later, metal detectors/jammers/any other stuff will become indispensible  at high level, and will be there. But the rank-and-file, what ca they do ? Ivanov is not competing in top tournaments either.

WanderingPuppet
jonnin wrote:

But a totally jammed and electronically isolated room with only 2 or 3 moderators and the 2 players.... is not hard to rig up. 

electronic jamming (at least for cell phones) i think is illegal in the US, the basis for the law is for reasons pertaining to medical practice.

waffllemaster

A Faraday cage would block all devices without needing a jammer.  I don't know how practical it would be to have non world class events like this though.

Irontiger
waffllemaster wrote:

A Faraday cage would block all devices without needing a jammer.  I don't know how practical it would be to have non world class events like this though.

Not very practical... You know many rooms where the walls are in copper ?

A good old metal detector (airoport-like) at the entrance is probably less expensive.

TheGrobe

One could say that he's finally achieved his immoral game.

waffllemaster

What's the "immortal" equivalent for "notorious?"  :)

waffllemaster
Irontiger wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

A Faraday cage would block all devices without needing a jammer.  I don't know how practical it would be to have non world class events like this though.

Not very practical... You know many rooms where the walls are in copper ?

A good old metal detector (airoport-like) at the entrance is probably less expensive.

Yeah, that's a more practical solution.

That or rent out one of those chambers where they test sensitive electronic equipment... not so practical I know :p

mladigaleb

Borislav Ivanov was suspected for cheating 2012.on international open tournament in Croatia, ''Zadar Open''. His score was 6 afther 9 round and he achived GM norm.On tournament was participate 36 players:

-16 grand masters

-6 international masters

-10 fide masters

Who is Borislav Ivanov?

Chess player and programmer from Bulgaria.26 years old

On Zadar Open 2012 he was fighting for 1st place even he was the worst rated player.During the tournament group of players assumed Ivanovov for cheating. Arbiter and some other people tried to find anything what would proved Ivanov is cheater! They didnt find nothing.

He didnt talk with nobody,didnt have any electronic things...in last game,organizators  have given him other pencil.He won in last game against GM Ivan Saric.

Croatian Grand Master Zlatko Klaric,said:''He is just chess programmer-the best example is game against GM Jovanovic when all 115 moves were chosed by computer too and thats not possible for people.''



Knightly_News
InoYamanaka wrote:

this how he cheat

 

That's a joke, right?  RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) is so passé.  I remember when engineers from Athlon presented to an engineering team I was on several years ago and they pointed out that modern CPUs and pipelining and optimization made the RISC model obsolete.  In other words,  it doesn't matter if you have a fairly robust set of CPU mnuemonics and and instructions (e.g. the opposite of RISC), because things are so fast, flexible and threaded now that it's all a wash. 

In other words, that's a really old device, isn't it?

SocialPanda
billyblatt wrote:
MJ4H wrote:

Plenty of it.

There was no evidence. Beating your opponents really well is not evidence. It just means you don't know how to play.

A 2006 study claimed to show that Capablanca was the most accurate of all the World Champions when compared with computer analysis of World Championship match games. However, this analysis was criticized for using a second-rank chess program, Crafty, modified to limit its calculations to six moves by each side, and for favoring players whose style matched that of the program. A new 2011 computer analysis by Bratko and Guid using Rybka 2 and Rybka 3 has revealed similar results to those achieved in the 2006 Crafty analysis.

Does it mean Capablanca was cheating?

Ivanov has 2 kind of games:

* Flawless games with perfect tactics

* 1900~ level games

In the flawless games he has around 98%-99% match with Houdini.

If I remember correctly in that studies of comparisons of World Champions and Programs, Capablanca and Carlsen had around 93% of match.

So Ivanov would be even better than the greatest in the history of chess, do you think that´s possible or Ivanov would be just cheating?

An additional thing from GM Bojkov:

"You probably do not know that before the open Bulgarian championship in Plovdiv this February the arbiter (IA Rumen Angelov) showed at the opening ceremony a gadget and stated that he has the right to check anyone during the event. This gadget was basically nothing, but for one or another reason Ivanov's performance there was around 1800-1900."

WanderingPuppet

If I remember correctly in that studies of comparisons of World Champions and Programs, Capablanca and Carlsen had around 93% of match.

that's a strange statistic regardless of your definition of match.  at wc level, approx. 40% top 1 choice and 57% top 3 choices [human move correlation with selection of top engines] although it's been a while since i've looked at the data.

stalematingintellect
FirebrandX wrote:
macer75 wrote:

So basically this is "guilty until proven innocent"?

No, this is "guilty by preponderance of evidence". You screwed up sociopaths need to look up the difference. DO NOT defend a cheater, lest ye be labled a corrupt moron as rightly you should.

Wow, that is rich coming from someone who used to claim they never used engines on ICCF, but whose ICCF rating is 600 points higher than their over the board rating.  Lately yes you've been "admitting" to playing centaur chess, but the damage is done, anybody can go back and find content of yours where you insisted you were not using an engine during ICCF play.

SmyslovFan

FIDE needs to come up with anti-cheating methods that will exonerate Magnus Carlsen but catch the cheats. Ivanov isn't guilty of playing well, he's guilty of plagiarizing Houdini or a similar engine. In one of his Zadar games, he played the engine's first choice moves even when a human would have found better moves!

It seems that the fact that Ivanov played inconsistently is used as clear evidence of his cheating. If he had played consistently that also would have been used as clear evidence of his cheating. 

The Bulgarian Chess Federation's decision feels like a lynching. Everyone says Ivanov must be guilty, so we're going to ban him. And yes, lynch mobs do sometimes get the right guy, but there should be a process in place before a person is banned that doesn't involve angry mobs.

stalematingintellect

WanderingPuppet

dr who needs to start turning up with his sonic screwdriver to detect electronic devices.

-waller-

Agreed, there should be a process. Hopefully, one will be introduced to combat this kind of event, which, while still very rare nowadays, will probably become more common in the future.

Nevertheless, anyone who claims that there is insufficient evidence of cheating is wrong. Statistical analysis, checked by human eye, is a viable method of proof of guilt.

The chances of DNA testing giving a false match is typically one in several billion. No-one doubts this as a tool that can be used to prove guilt, and sentence people to life imprisonment or death.

The probability of Ivanov playing game after game, where each move turns out to be Houdini's first choice, even when it looks bizarre, conditioned over the reasonable assumption that he is not the best chess player by far that ever lived, is at least, if not far more, unlikely, by my estimation. Add this to the fact that he played ridiculously poorly in that one tournament, plus the interpretations Lilov gives in his videos, and for me, guilt is beyond any sort of reasonable doubt. I don't see what there is to defend.

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