How can people think they can detect engine use?

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Avatar of DjonniDerevnja
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

I might have a computerlike style in some games? Is it so that computermoves does require so deep calculations that humans wont go for them? I do calculate unpresicely on intuition or guesstimation, so I often choose moves that has a far out plan, without calculating enough. I think that if it works , it works, and the only way to find if it is right, is to try playing it.

Because of that style, and general lack of experience, I do not perform consistent, and might play one game at 2000 strenght, and the next at 1200 (blundering or miscalculating)

The way I see it is, if you really are capable of playing at 2000 and you play at 1200 in 50% of your games, that isn't normal. I seriously doubt your averages work out that way. I believe the creators of chess rating systems themselves don't agree that is how games would be played considering this is how the math breaks down.

Arpad Elo set the ratings table up so that the standard deviation of performance in a single game is defined to be 200 rating points.  He assumed that player's performance in a single game would vary according to a "normal" or "Gaussian" distribution.  This would mean that about 68% of the time a player would perform between -200 and +200 points around his rating in a single game.

For multiple games the deviation becomes less and it becomes less as the square root of the number of games.  So the "standard error" in five games is 200 over the square root of five, or about +-89 points, and in ten games +-63 rating points.  If your performance is actually better or worse than that then you'll gain or lose points accordingly.

About 86% of the time you should perform within +- 300 rating points of your rating in a single game if your rating is accurate.

In fact that looks like either sandbagging or intermittent cheating of engine use, or perhaps some of both....

2000 and 1200 are ca top and bottom. Everybody is at 1200 or something if they loose an officer. I did beat a 1815 Fide in otb-tournament in september, and 1815 Fide is stronger than 2000 online. My friend Vegma is at 1950 online and maye 1650 fide. He is a bit stronger than me.

Because I did compete a year, 37 years ago, I have some intuitive chess in my blood, which can make strong players bleeding, and because I have been away for 37 years, and only read one chessbook back in my youth, I have a huge amount of knowledgeholes to fill. Therefore I am inconsistent. 

I also have lost a couple of games online on tactics, giving away officer , to win something some moves later, but forgotten what I was doing, opening the game three days after, and been playing 30 other games-moves inbetween. 

I usually have interesting games online against 1500-1900-players, but one mistake, and the 1400`s bites me.

I belong among 2000+ players, but I have some work to do to get there and stabilize on that level. My plan ist to get 2000 online for christmas 2015 (and 1800 for christmas this year). These days I feel like beeing behind my plan. 

I regretfully inform you that if you make one mistake against 1400's here and lose, you don't belong amongst the 2000's. You may want to see yourself there or think because of you having a good game while your stronger friend had a bad one that, automatically grandfathers you by association but, it doesn't work that way.

I have beaten an 1800+ personlity on here and a chessmaster game I have, drew a few other 1800's here, and a 1900 here in 960 random chess, but that doesn't make me think I deserve or belong with the 1700's, even though I have beaten a handful of them here too.

In fact, a 2000+ will still make some mistakes but, the mistakes the 1400 makes are going to be amplified so much by the profound moves played against them, the mistake of 2000 wont matter. A true 2000, easily could gambit a pawn or liquidate one and crush a 1400, nearly everytime they play, as long as they both have established ratings.

Here, my last otb-tournament:

I am Erlend Sæteren. I got 3 points. My victories were against 1814 Fide (Aarnes) and fide 1638 (Sjoberg), and unrated (Gusarov)

My friend Vegard Martinsen got 3,5 points. He is 1950 online. I am not at his level yet, but there is only a lot hard work to get there in ca one year. 

http://turneringsservice.sjakklubb.no/standings.aspx?TID=Hostturneringen2014NordstrandS-NordstrandSjakklubb

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
DjonniDerevnja wrote:
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

I might have a computerlike style in some games? Is it so that computermoves does require so deep calculations that humans wont go for them? I do calculate unpresicely on intuition or guesstimation, so I often choose moves that has a far out plan, without calculating enough. I think that if it works , it works, and the only way to find if it is right, is to try playing it.

Because of that style, and general lack of experience, I do not perform consistent, and might play one game at 2000 strenght, and the next at 1200 (blundering or miscalculating)

The way I see it is, if you really are capable of playing at 2000 and you play at 1200 in 50% of your games, that isn't normal. I seriously doubt your averages work out that way. I believe the creators of chess rating systems themselves don't agree that is how games would be played considering this is how the math breaks down.

Arpad Elo set the ratings table up so that the standard deviation of performance in a single game is defined to be 200 rating points.  He assumed that player's performance in a single game would vary according to a "normal" or "Gaussian" distribution.  This would mean that about 68% of the time a player would perform between -200 and +200 points around his rating in a single game.

For multiple games the deviation becomes less and it becomes less as the square root of the number of games.  So the "standard error" in five games is 200 over the square root of five, or about +-89 points, and in ten games +-63 rating points.  If your performance is actually better or worse than that then you'll gain or lose points accordingly.

About 86% of the time you should perform within +- 300 rating points of your rating in a single game if your rating is accurate.

In fact that looks like either sandbagging or intermittent cheating of engine use, or perhaps some of both....

2000 and 1200 are ca top and bottom. Everybody is at 1200 or something if they loose an officer. I did beat a 1815 Fide in otb-tournament in september, and 1815 Fide is stronger than 2000 online. My friend Vegma is at 1950 online and maye 1650 fide. He is a bit stronger than me.

Because I did compete a year, 37 years ago, I have some intuitive chess in my blood, which can make strong players bleeding, and because I have been away for 37 years, and only read one chessbook back in my youth, I have a huge amount of knowledgeholes to fill. Therefore I am inconsistent. 

I also have lost a couple of games online on tactics, giving away officer , to win something some moves later, but forgotten what I was doing, opening the game three days after, and been playing 30 other games-moves inbetween. 

I usually have interesting games online against 1500-1900-players, but one mistake, and the 1400`s bites me.

I belong among 2000+ players, but I have some work to do to get there and stabilize on that level. My plan ist to get 2000 online for christmas 2015 (and 1800 for christmas this year). These days I feel like beeing behind my plan. 

I regretfully inform you that if you make one mistake against 1400's here and lose, you don't belong amongst the 2000's. You may want to see yourself there or think because of you having a good game while your stronger friend had a bad one that, automatically grandfathers you by association but, it doesn't work that way.

I have beaten an 1800+ personlity on here and a chessmaster game I have, drew a few other 1800's here, and a 1900 here in 960 random chess, but that doesn't make me think I deserve or belong with the 1700's, even though I have beaten a handful of them here too.

In fact, a 2000+ will still make some mistakes but, the mistakes the 1400 makes are going to be amplified so much by the profound moves played against them, the mistake of 2000 wont matter. A true 2000, easily could gambit a pawn or liquidate one and crush a 1400, nearly everytime they play, as long as they both have established ratings.

Here, my last otb-tournament:

I am Erlend Sæteren. I got 3 points. My victories were against 1814 Fide (Aarnes) and fide 1638 (Sjoberg), and unrated (Gusarov)

My friend Vegard Martinsen got 3,5 points. He is 1950 online. I am not at his level yet, but there is only a lot hard work to get there in ca one year. 

http://turneringsservice.sjakklubb.no/standings.aspx?TID=Hostturneringen2014NordstrandS-NordstrandSjakklubb

ALso, you have to consider that, you maybe are really familiar with your friends' tendencies but, that won't necessarily get you far when confronted continually by players at 2000, who are putting you in unfamiliar positions...

Avatar of DjonniDerevnja

What I am trying to say is that many players are playing at very different strenght from game to game. You have yourself beaten players far above your strenght, and you did draw a 1350. So you must know that 1350-1400 players can beat a blundering 1700 (I have been above 1700 this year). 

In "høstturneringen" I did play fantastic in one game, and huge part of three other games I played. That fantastic level is of course depending of how my opponent moves, but I know I have it within reach, and that experience and rehearsing  will take me up there more consistent by the end of 2015.

Nobody cheats at the OTB -tournaments I have attended.

Maybe I have worse gaps between my top and bottom than lot of other players, because my best is very good, and my worst isnt good. maybe I play sharp, because I only draw in 5%. I win or I blunder.

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

What I am trying to say is that many players are playing at very different strenght form game to game. You have yourself beaten players far above your strenght, and you did draw a 1350. So you must know that 1350-1400 players can beat a blundering 1700 (I have been above 1700 this year). 

In "høstturneringen" I did play fantastic in one game, and huge part of three other games I played. That fantastic level is of course depending of how my opponent moves, but I know I have it within reach, and that experience and rehearsing  will take me up there more consistent by the end of 2015.

Nobody cheats at the OTB -tournaments I have attended.

I am glad you brought that up. It gives me a time to help break down a few things. The GM level starts at 2500 and goes up over 350 points. So when you say "my level", that can be a broad spectrum.

However, the system I am working on, has nothing to do with Elo. it rates you according to how you play positions. You can make one bad move in a game and it adversely affects your rating, perhaps costing you the game and 15 rating points. With my system, you wouldn't even notice one bad move that could cost you a game. It would represent 1% point or less.

Avatar of shell_knight
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

Here, my last otb-tournament:

I am Erlend Sæteren. I got 3 points. My victories were against 1814 Fide (Aarnes) and fide 1638 (Sjoberg), and unrated (Gusarov)

My friend Vegard Martinsen got 3,5 points. He is 1950 online. I am not at his level yet, but there is only a lot hard work to get there in ca one year. 

http://turneringsservice.sjakklubb.no/standings.aspx?TID=Hostturneringen2014NordstrandS-NordstrandSjakklubb

According to the link, you beat Isak Sjøberg in the 3rd round and he did not have a FIDE rating.

Werner Solberg has a 1600 rating, but you didn't play him.

Anyway, you'll figure it all out for yourself as you keep playing.  You're not close to 2000... yet.  Like you said if you work hard you can get there.  Everyone started as a beginner.

Avatar of DjonniDerevnja
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

What I am trying to say is that many players are playing at very different strenght form game to game. You have yourself beaten players far above your strenght, and you did draw a 1350. So you must know that 1350-1400 players can beat a blundering 1700 (I have been above 1700 this year). 

In "høstturneringen" I did play fantastic in one game, and huge part of three other games I played. That fantastic level is of course depending of how my opponent moves, but I know I have it within reach, and that experience and rehearsing  will take me up there more consistent by the end of 2015.

Nobody cheats at the OTB -tournaments I have attended.

I am glad you brought that up. It gives me a time to help break down a few things. The GM level starts at 2500 and goes up over 350 points. So when you say "my level", that can be a broad spectrum.

However, the system I am working on, has nothing to do with Elo. it rates you according to how you play positions. You can make one bad move and it adversely affects your rating, perhaps 15 points. With my system, you wouldn't even notice one bad move that cost you a game. It would represent 1% point or less.

You saw the resultlist from Høstturneringen. In my club we are scattered over a lot of levels, most players were from my club. I am in class five, but think my level is more class four ,but on my best days, class three. Class four is close to 1700-online. I did beat one class 2 player, but won to few points to meet class one players. 

I definitively were a class five player this winter, but have rehearsed a lot, so I am now performing 350 points above my nominal Norwegian ELO, that is calculated mainly from my winter results.

My level is nominally class 5, based on old data, but the ratingperformance the same as in class 4.

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
DjonniDerevnja wrote:
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

What I am trying to say is that many players are playing at very different strenght form game to game. You have yourself beaten players far above your strenght, and you did draw a 1350. So you must know that 1350-1400 players can beat a blundering 1700 (I have been above 1700 this year). 

In "høstturneringen" I did play fantastic in one game, and huge part of three other games I played. That fantastic level is of course depending of how my opponent moves, but I know I have it within reach, and that experience and rehearsing  will take me up there more consistent by the end of 2015.

Nobody cheats at the OTB -tournaments I have attended.

I am glad you brought that up. It gives me a time to help break down a few things. The GM level starts at 2500 and goes up over 350 points. So when you say "my level", that can be a broad spectrum.

However, the system I am working on, has nothing to do with Elo. it rates you according to how you play positions. You can make one bad move and it adversely affects your rating, perhaps 15 points. With my system, you wouldn't even notice one bad move that cost you a game. It would represent 1% point or less.

You saw the resultlist from Høstturneringen. In my club we are scattered over a lot of levels, most players were from my club. I am in class five, but think my level is more class four ,but on my best days, class three. Class four is close to 1700-online. I did beat one class 2 player, but won to few points to meet class one players. 

I definitively were a class five player this winter, but have rehearsed a lot, so I am now performing 350 points above my nominal Norwegian ELO, that is calculated mainly from my winter results.

My level is nominally class 5, based on old data, but the ratingperformance the same as in class 4.

Part of your dilemma is going to be trying to compare live FIDE Elo ratings with online Chess.com Glicko correspondence ratings. People here is correspondence use databases, books, videos, analysis boards.

I have beaten some 1450+ USCF players in chess club. I tend to think you are only about as good as you tactics trainer rating on this site, if you use it regularly and play regularly, unless you get a lot of time out wins, or I hate to say the other dirty word, but the cheating here can actually bring your rating down to what it would possibly be OTB too...

Avatar of MrKornKid

Lots of interesting read here.  Nice to see.  My 2 cents on the OP is, as someone says, just doesn't feel right.  I also think that cheaters justify cheating by telling themselves that "Oh, hey, the dude I'm playing against is probably using it, so it wont hurt if I do."

For me, I am at 1000 or so total games and have only suspected a cheater 3 times.  Who knows how rampid it actually is but hey, what I don't know wont hurt me.

Avatar of lenslens1

I once played online before strong engines and got my rating above 2600 over several months. Later I played again and played some of the most beautiful games of my life at slow speed. My moves were better than most engine moves, because they would be choices that the engines would not choose, but thought were OK. I would not bother to play online now, because I would surely be accused of cheating and banned. oh, and my speed chess sucks because I think slowly.

Avatar of Jion_Wansu

when I 1st started on Yahoo! Chess, my rating was 2140 in 1998

Avatar of DrSpudnik
TheMouth888 wrote:
Jion_Wansu wrote:

when I 1st started on Yahoo! Chess, my rating was 2140 in 1998

And now your rating in spamming Chess.com forums is over 3000 :D!

LOL!

Avatar of DjonniDerevnja
shell_knight wrote:
DjonniDerevnja wrote:

Here, my last otb-tournament:

I am Erlend Sæteren. I got 3 points. My victories were against 1814 Fide (Aarnes) and fide 1638 (Sjoberg), and unrated (Gusarov)

My friend Vegard Martinsen got 3,5 points. He is 1950 online. I am not at his level yet, but there is only a lot hard work to get there in ca one year. 

http://turneringsservice.sjakklubb.no/standings.aspx?TID=Hostturneringen2014NordstrandS-NordstrandSjakklubb

According to the link, you beat Isak Sjøberg in the 3rd round and he did not have a FIDE rating.

Werner Solberg has a 1600 rating, but you didn't play him.

Anyway, you'll figure it all out for yourself as you keep playing.  You're not close to 2000... yet.  Like you said if you work hard you can get there.  Everyone started as a beginner.

Isak has got Fiderating now, 1638.

http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=1521640

1638 fide is very close to 2000 chess.com online, and Isak is only 11 years  and exersising every day, so his rating and strenght is skyrocketing. He is on the Norwegian kid national team.

Of course 2000 fide is far far above my strenght, but 2000 online (chess.com)is a level many 1650 onlineplayers in progress are sniffing at. We are not there yet, but  the path is definitively walkable, althoug it takes a huge effort.

In my best 30 % of my games I am playing on level with 1650fide/2000online, and in these games I feel that it is my natural level.

Mistakes, bad ideas, bad choices and lack of knowledge and understanding does degrade my quality in my worse game, but I know I can be up there, and the percentage of qualitygames are growing as I work hard. This autmn I am learning an opening that saves me from disaster in some percents of my games. 

Avatar of Jion_Wansu

How is using an engine cheating if using opening books is not cheating? Any type of aid is considered cheating unless you only use your brain...

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
Jion_Wansu wrote:

How is using an engine cheating if using opening books is not cheating? Any type of aid is considered cheating unless you only use your brain...

While I have argued this myself, it is a traditional aspect to correspondence that each side fully expected to research the best possible moves to choose one. That is still not an unfair advantage.

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
Fkey wrote:

Is that make up ? or do you have a thing for tar ?

Estee Lauder ?

Would you rather see my face ?

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
Fkey wrote:

Your bank balance, share portfolio and Maserati would be preferable

Only joking lol

For a moment I thought you were talking to the guy behind me... Tongue Out

Avatar of DjonniDerevnja
Fkey wrote:

I think people are right, it is more like a feeling, I think I have just experienced it.

But playing all your moves virtually immediately and having a really poor blitz rating seems a bit unusual ?!

I have a poor blitzrating, I am just not fast enough, and I often can make moves on 30 seconds online. 30 seconds sounds fast, but blitz is much faster, maybe 5 to 10 seconds a move, and not allowing lots of minutes or days when you are coming to a difficult position and needs time to think.

I like what cookiemonster said.

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone

I had a feeling the other day based on the moves played, reported him and viola, he's gone....

I guess some people need to get more in touch with their feelings...

Avatar of ParadoxOfNone
Fkey wrote:

Guess what, Playercit0 has also gone now.

Obviously they do not delete all of such peoples results ?! if not that seems unbalanced.

I am ok with losing, but to a machine man lol ?

I resigned the game anyway and told him he was cheating, strange experience but all I can say is that it really felt different to playing everyone else who beat me fair and square.

I recommend dragging out games against cheating suspects. Report them and hopefully they'll get banned. Then you'll win on time.

Avatar of Jion_Wansu

Am I "cheating"

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