How easy is it to become a GM?

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Avatar of Richard_Hunter

I humbly suggest that a National Master might know a little bit more about Chess than some guy at 1000. I guess everyone is entitled to there opinions though.

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
aocvirek wrote:

 

@Richard_Hunter

We aren't discussing chess in any way that his rating or mine is of any significance. Not with regards to tactics, strategy, end game theory, openings, or any other part of chess in which his title is of any consequence. 

We are having a comparative discussion related to chess and other sports, specifically regarding an analogy with football, hockey, baseball, golf, etc... being compared to chess skill for the purposes of explaining the difficulty of obtaining elite level of play when one begins late in life.

My 1000 rating (granted by chess.com as I have yet to play a game here, for all you know I could be an IM or GM myself), nor his NM title, has any bearing on that discussion. This is similar to claiming that your last name makes you an expert on all things related to firearms since a "hunter" might use one to shoot a deer. You may not be a hunter, you may not use a gun, or know much about guns. 

If we are having a comparative discussion and I have been a professional football and baseball player, does that make me a more valid expert than him and make my argument more valid by appeal to authority? Perhaps if I was a statistics professor? Or a sports psychologist? You can take your pick, but the comparison is equally unimportant. 

Perhaps you should evaluate the argument instead of 'worshiping the little red letters' next to his name. I'm sure if Magnus Carlson waded into the discussion and said "the 1000 is right" you'd bow to his decision even if my argument was just bogus declarations.

Think for yourself my friend. Numbers aren't everything.

you havent provided a single hint that shows that you understand how vanishingly rare, later age GM's without being an at least expert strength in late- teens, early twenty's are.

i am confident in my answer because it is something that i am personally very interested in and done my own research on the matter with clearly more rigor than that wall of text without any significant point to make, and i already being in the 99th percentile of chess players understand the difficulty in getting there, and a good idea what further training i need to reach the next titles.

all you have shown is that you take your own opinion far too seriously, for someone that clearly has done so little research on the topic. There is a good reason why the overwhelming majority of masters just admit its not possible. ITs not because it is absolutely literally impossible mind you, but because in the almost 70 years, we had the grandmaster title, almost no one has pulled it off, and if some of Silman's testimony  on the matter is of any relevance not for a lack of trying even among wealthy adult students of his who have tried.

the math is also pretty clear on this,  GM's are like the top 0.3% percent of chess players. Late age GM's are FAR rarer than even 10% of GM players (certainly of the 1000+ GM's in history, 100 is too high a number for late age GM's, even 50 is probably far too high. the real number is probably closer to 20 or 30). 

this means late age GM's are rarer  than 0.03% percent of the chess population. This is 99th percent of the 99th percent level of rare.

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi
ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

I love people who tell you to think for yourself (when they are so obviously the hatchlings of some critical-thinking seminar or other).

Avatar of DrSpudnik

Claptrap is a growth industry. I can imagine that one day our entire economy will consist of people hired to encourage each other with platitudes.

Avatar of gauranga

It's very hard for 99.9% of all players. I tried becoming an IM in the 1990s and couldn't even do that! happy.png

Avatar of darkunorthodox88

i think a good yardstick if you are already in the 2000-2200 zone is to look back at the level of effort it took you to get there. (not just quantitatively, like amount of rated games or number of years, but psychological difficulty). if you already got to the expert-low master level and feel you havent even gotten started in going all out (As in 5+ hours a day of studying and playing, monk devotion to your chess goal), then i think your chances are better than most provided money and time are not issues.

if you feel like you are grinding every neuron just to get to the 2xxx zone or stay there, then i strongly think you should reconsider.

Avatar of SmyslovFan

Everyone hits a wall they can't get past at some point. 

In general, people keep improving until their early 30s, reach a plateau that they can maintain for several years, then slowly taper off. This pattern of development has been well documented in world class chess players. Of course, there are always exceptions, and records are made to be broken, et cetera et cetera. 

Andy Soltis demonstrated that historically, most players were within sight (~200 rating points) of their best rating within seven years of taking the game up competitively. There are rare exceptions to that rule. 

But, don't let stats stop you. Again, referring to Andy Soltis, who was USCF's chess educator of the year in 2017, focus on the goal, not the obstacles. Here's a link to his excellent book, What it Takes to Become a Chess Master

https://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi
SmyslovFan wrote:

Everyone hits a wall they can't get past at some point. 

In general, people keep improving until their early 30s, reach a plateau that they can maintain for several years, then slowly taper off. This pattern of development has been well documented in world class chess players. Of course, there are always exceptions, and records are made to be broken, et cetera et cetera. 

Andy Soltis demonstrated that historically, most players were within sight (~200 rating points) of their best rating within seven years of taking the game up competitively. There are rare exceptions to that rule. 

But, don't let stats stop you. Again, referring to Andy Soltis, who was USCF's chess educator of the year in 2017, focus on the goal, not the obstacles. Here's a link to his excellent book, What it Takes to Become a Chess Master

https://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

Although I'm not sure how well we can compare strong GMs to your average guy.

What I mean is if someone has been playing for 10 years at a 1500 level I don't think much is stopping them, biologically, from improving many 100s of points (bad habits might be another matter). I'm not saying they can be a master for sure, just that they have more potential for improvement than someone who has been 2500 for 10 years.

Avatar of kindaspongey

https://web.archive.org/web/20140708093409/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/review857.pdf

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
Preggo_Basashi wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

Everyone hits a wall they can't get past at some point. 

In general, people keep improving until their early 30s, reach a plateau that they can maintain for several years, then slowly taper off. This pattern of development has been well documented in world class chess players. Of course, there are always exceptions, and records are made to be broken, et cetera et cetera. 

Andy Soltis demonstrated that historically, most players were within sight (~200 rating points) of their best rating within seven years of taking the game up competitively. There are rare exceptions to that rule. 

But, don't let stats stop you. Again, referring to Andy Soltis, who was USCF's chess educator of the year in 2017, focus on the goal, not the obstacles. Here's a link to his excellent book, What it Takes to Become a Chess Master

https://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

Although I'm not sure how well we can compare strong GMs to your average guy.

What I mean is if someone has been playing for 10 years at a 1500 level I don't think much is stopping them, biologically, from improving many 100s of points (bad habits might be another matter). I'm not saying they can be a master for sure, just that they have more potential for improvement than someone who has been 2500 for 10 years.

i dont know how fair a comparison that is. improving 25 points at 2500 level is MUCH harder than improving even 200 points at 1500 probably.

Avatar of testaaaaa
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Preggo_Basashi wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

Everyone hits a wall they can't get past at some point. 

In general, people keep improving until their early 30s, reach a plateau that they can maintain for several years, then slowly taper off. This pattern of development has been well documented in world class chess players. Of course, there are always exceptions, and records are made to be broken, et cetera et cetera. 

Andy Soltis demonstrated that historically, most players were within sight (~200 rating points) of their best rating within seven years of taking the game up competitively. There are rare exceptions to that rule. 

But, don't let stats stop you. Again, referring to Andy Soltis, who was USCF's chess educator of the year in 2017, focus on the goal, not the obstacles. Here's a link to his excellent book, What it Takes to Become a Chess Master

https://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

Although I'm not sure how well we can compare strong GMs to your average guy.

What I mean is if someone has been playing for 10 years at a 1500 level I don't think much is stopping them, biologically, from improving many 100s of points (bad habits might be another matter). I'm not saying they can be a master for sure, just that they have more potential for improvement than someone who has been 2500 for 10 years.

i dont know how fair a comparison that is. improving 25 points at 2500 level is MUCH harder than improving even 200 points at 1500 probably.

every point at that level is like a huge achievement, thats why so much new GMs drop a bit under 2500 right after they get gm - only the relief of a little bit stress and focus 

Avatar of B3ka

You Never Know Until You Try

Avatar of IpswichMatt
ghost_of_pushwood wrote:

Actually, all of that motivational nonsense (incidentally just a small part of the modern-day multi-billion dollar Nonsense industry) reminds me of my last job.  One of our monthly tasks was to mail out a Book of the Month for a management consulting firm.

To say that these volumes were interchangeable would be to emphasize their idiosyncrasy.   And yet--even though they all looked exactly the same, sounded exactly the same, and said absolutely nothing at all from month to month--apparently the buying public snapped them up in droves.

Reminds me of "Men's Health" magazine.

Having said that - next month's will reveal the secret (finally!) of getting "killer abs" - so obviously you should buy that one.

Avatar of Preggo_Basashi
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Preggo_Basashi wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

Everyone hits a wall they can't get past at some point. 

In general, people keep improving until their early 30s, reach a plateau that they can maintain for several years, then slowly taper off. This pattern of development has been well documented in world class chess players. Of course, there are always exceptions, and records are made to be broken, et cetera et cetera. 

Andy Soltis demonstrated that historically, most players were within sight (~200 rating points) of their best rating within seven years of taking the game up competitively. There are rare exceptions to that rule. 

But, don't let stats stop you. Again, referring to Andy Soltis, who was USCF's chess educator of the year in 2017, focus on the goal, not the obstacles. Here's a link to his excellent book, What it Takes to Become a Chess Master

https://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

Although I'm not sure how well we can compare strong GMs to your average guy.

What I mean is if someone has been playing for 10 years at a 1500 level I don't think much is stopping them, biologically, from improving many 100s of points (bad habits might be another matter). I'm not saying they can be a master for sure, just that they have more potential for improvement than someone who has been 2500 for 10 years.

i dont know how fair a comparison that is. improving 25 points at 2500 level is MUCH harder than improving even 200 points at 1500 probably.

That what I mean though.

Smyslov fan says data shows people peak ~7 years after they begin serious play, and I'm guessing this data only looks at GMs.

There are adult who have "peaked" at 1500, but to them I'm saying, wait, the GMs may have no hope, but you still do.

Avatar of CatPetter
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Preggo_Basashi wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

Everyone hits a wall they can't get past at some point. 

In general, people keep improving until their early 30s, reach a plateau that they can maintain for several years, then slowly taper off. This pattern of development has been well documented in world class chess players. Of course, there are always exceptions, and records are made to be broken, et cetera et cetera. 

Andy Soltis demonstrated that historically, most players were within sight (~200 rating points) of their best rating within seven years of taking the game up competitively. There are rare exceptions to that rule. 

But, don't let stats stop you. Again, referring to Andy Soltis, who was USCF's chess educator of the year in 2017, focus on the goal, not the obstacles. Here's a link to his excellent book, What it Takes to Become a Chess Master

https://www.amazon.com/Takes-Become-Chess-Master-Batsford/dp/1849940266

Although I'm not sure how well we can compare strong GMs to your average guy.

What I mean is if someone has been playing for 10 years at a 1500 level I don't think much is stopping them, biologically, from improving many 100s of points (bad habits might be another matter). I'm not saying they can be a master for sure, just that they have more potential for improvement than someone who has been 2500 for 10 years.

i dont know how fair a comparison that is. improving 25 points at 2500 level is MUCH harder than improving even 200 points at 1500 probably.

I think that is what his point is.  A guy a 1500 can improve.

Avatar of respecthebish1

Considering the op is under 1300 2 years later..it doesn't look that good for him

Avatar of ESP-918

15-20years , 10hours of study , 6 days a week. You will definitely rich an IM . Also GM is possible.

Avatar of BL4D3RUNN3R

You have to be young. As an adult 10.000 hours yield you expert level, say FIDE 2000-2200.

 

 

Avatar of bong711

The OP do not plan to become Grandmaster. He would be General Manager of a large company.

Avatar of Capabotvikhine
VladimirHerceg91 wrote:

I am 25 and just started playing chess. How hard was it for you guys to become Grandmasters?

I'm hoping that in a few years time I can be grandmaster if I put in about 5 hours a day of preparation. That's almost 10,000 hours. 9125 to be exact (5*365*5). From what I know, becoming a grandmaster used to be hard, but now it's easy because of computers. That's why there is so many grandmasters nowadays. So if you guys could tell me how you became grandmasters I would appreciate it. Please discuss study time, preparation, how long it took you, diet, etc.  

 

Thanks guys 

 

it is highly unlikely you will ever become a grandmaster. being a grandmaster means being among the most elite chess players on the planet. even for the most motivated, and the most gifted players it normally takes many years. your reference about it being easier due to computers is total rubbish. everyone has computers. everyone has engines for study. therefore it raised the bar for everyone. if only you had a computer and no one else did it would be an advantage. since that is not the case, it is an untrue sastement. 

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