How much of chess is luck?

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Richard_Hunter

I think the 80/20 rule definitely comes into play here.

kariton

The better player is always lucky.

cellomaster8
It’s usually luck until you hit 2000+ I believe. The game is usually determined by a blunder or a few mistakes
Pikelemi
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Unless you think that a human can calculate every variation resulting from a move, then there has to be some luck  involved. The only question for me is why people deny this?

 

That is not luck but lack of skills. You are not using a dice to decide your move. You can move whatever you like.

CavalryFC

Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

uri65
cellomaster8 wrote:
It’s usually luck until you hit 2000+ I believe. The game is usually determined by a blunder or a few mistakes

The game is determined by mistakes ar any level, just the mistakes become more subtle at higher levels.

Richard_Hunter
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

Mr. 1474 believes he's not a beginner, LOL!

Richard_Hunter
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Unless you think that a human can calculate every variation resulting from a move, then there has to be some luck  involved. The only question for me is why people deny this?

 

That is not luck but lack of skills. You are not using a dice to decide your move. You can move whatever you like.

Exactly, but show me the player who doesn't lack skills.

CavalryFC

Richard_Hunter wrote:

CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

Mr. 1474 believes he's not a beginner, LOL!

not denying I'm a beginner. but I know enough to know I'm lacking skill.

Richard_Hunter
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

Mr. 1474 believes he's not a beginner, LOL!

not denying I'm a beginner. but I know enough to know I'm lacking skill.

You also lack the ability to read, apparently.

CavalryFC

Richard_Hunter wrote:

CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

Mr. 1474 believes he's not a beginner, LOL!

not denying I'm a beginner. but I know enough to know I'm lacking skill.

You also lack the ability to read, apparently.

I'm not trying to fight, argue, or be insulting. I think people who know far more about the game honestly tried to answer. Backgammon has luck... there is a dice roll. There are limits to what each human can calculate but that is part of the difference in our skill. Perhaps a more interesting question would be if tactical calculation increases, does reliance on strategy and position decrease?

Pikelemi
Richard_Hunter wrote:
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Unless you think that a human can calculate every variation resulting from a move, then there has to be some luck  involved. The only question for me is why people deny this?

 

That is not luck but lack of skills. You are not using a dice to decide your move. You can move whatever you like.

Exactly, but show me the player who doesn't lack skills.

 

That doesn't exists but it still not luck.

Richard_Hunter
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Unless you think that a human can calculate every variation resulting from a move, then there has to be some luck  involved. The only question for me is why people deny this?

 

That is not luck but lack of skills. You are not using a dice to decide your move. You can move whatever you like.

Exactly, but show me the player who doesn't lack skills.

 

That doesn't exists but it still not luck.

So what is it then?

Richard_Hunter
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

Mr. 1474 believes he's not a beginner, LOL!

not denying I'm a beginner. but I know enough to know I'm lacking skill.

You also lack the ability to read, apparently.

I'm not trying to fight, argue, or be insulting. I think people who know far more about the game honestly tried to answer. Backgammon has luck... there is a dice roll. There are limits to what each human can calculate but that is part of the difference in our skill. Perhaps a more interesting question would be if tactical calculation increases, does reliance on strategy and position decrease?

Well ok, but nowhere did I say that chess wasn't a game that involves skill.

forked_again
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I'm not saying that chess isn't skilled based. Clearly it is. I'm questioning how much of it is luck. Unless you think that the top players can calculate every possible variation leading from each move (which isn't credible), then there must be some luck involved. I'm more interested in why people are in denial about this.

No no no!

You don't have to see infinitely deeply into a position to attribute your moves to skill.  The goal is to beat your opponent.  If you do, you had more skill than he did.  

The top players see incredibly deeply, almost like computers.  That is skill.  

The people who are better than you have more skill, if they are worse they have less skill. 

In games where luck is a component, poker for example, the outcome could be a result of something completely outside the control of the players (deal of the cards).  That is NEVER the case in chess.  

You aren't defining luck correctly.  

forked_again
jbolden1517 wrote:

I'll do a worst case first.  As the discrepancy between players get larger the odds that the result is luck decrease.  For two players perfectly matched it is all "luck"in the sense you are using it.

 

 

 

Green and red represent the results based on normal and logistic distributions respectively depending on where you come down on that issue.   In short I'd say that if X has a probability of p of beating Y then X's result being the result of skill is 2*p-1 for 2*p-1>0 or 0 otherwise. Reversing this the chance it was "luck" is 2-2*p for 2-2*p > 0 otherwise 0.  Using that definition of luck a weaker player beating a stronger or equal player is always the result of luck while with a 1000 point discrepancy luck plays no role at all.  For something more reasonable like 100 point discrepancy, the stronger player winning is 26% skill, 74% luck.  

 

So that's the worst case.  The problem is that there is some additional serial correlation between individual players.  That is if X beat Y even one game X has a moderately higher chance of beating Y in future games than the rating would suggest.  Players "fit" each others styles.  The above assumes that "luck" is part of picking players, like a random blitz game here.   But if you are choosing your opponents based on fit that's a question of skill and not luck.  Which increases the skill percentage.  

Fancy post, bad conclusion. 

Richard_Hunter
forked_again wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I'm not saying that chess isn't skilled based. Clearly it is. I'm questioning how much of it is luck. Unless you think that the top players can calculate every possible variation leading from each move (which isn't credible), then there must be some luck involved. I'm more interested in why people are in denial about this.

No no no!

You don't have to see infinitely deeply into a position to attribute your moves to skill.  The goal is to beat your opponent.  If you do, you had more skill than he did.  

The top players see incredibly deeply, almost like computers.  That is skill.  

The people who are better than you have more skill, if they are worse they have less skill. 

In games where luck is a component, poker for example, the outcome could be a result of something completely outside the control of the players (deal of the cards).  That is NEVER the case in chess.  

You aren't defining luck correctly.  

If you're not able to see every possible consequence resulting from a move, then you are depending, to some extent, on luck. 

CavalryFC

Richard_Hunter wrote:

CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
CavalryFC wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

I have a sense that people have such a fixed mindset that they've never even considered this question.

Every beginner has pondered this and if they stick to it and learn they come to the same conclusion.

Mr. 1474 believes he's not a beginner, LOL!

not denying I'm a beginner. but I know enough to know I'm lacking skill.

You also lack the ability to read, apparently.

I'm not trying to fight, argue, or be insulting. I think people who know far more about the game honestly tried to answer. Backgammon has luck... there is a dice roll. There are limits to what each human can calculate but that is part of the difference in our skill. Perhaps a more interesting question would be if tactical calculation increases, does reliance on strategy and position decrease?

Well ok, but nowhere did I say that chess wasn't a game that involves skill.

I think the difference here is your definition of luck. Games of chance.. backgammon and Yahtzee have true unknowns. I believe most of us call that unknown element "luck". There is no level of training that would allow me to predict with absolute precision the roll of the dice. In chess, the situation is known. There is no chance that the knight could teleport to a square that couldn't have been foreseen. My lack of vision isn't luck. I would agree that luck is at play all the time with players that should see something and that they miss. I get lucky wins all the time where my opponent missed a simple mate. It's really semantics.

Pikelemi
Richard_Hunter wrote:
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:
Pikelemi wrote:
Richard_Hunter wrote:

Unless you think that a human can calculate every variation resulting from a move, then there has to be some luck  involved. The only question for me is why people deny this?

 

That is not luck but lack of skills. You are not using a dice to decide your move. You can move whatever you like.

Exactly, but show me the player who doesn't lack skills.

 

That doesn't exists but it still not luck.

So what is it then?

 

LACK OF SKILLS!

forked_again

Not seeing every outcome does not make your move part luck.  You use skill to make your move.  If your opponent makes a better move you lose.  He had more skill.  It is 100% skill.  Your argument is that it is not "unlimited skill".  Limited skill does not require luck.  You need to sharpen your logic.  

If we are shooting basketballs through a hoop, I will hit get more baskets than you if I have more skill.  The fact that I am not perfect and can not score on 100% of throws does not mean I am lucky when I score.  

Luck implies something outside of your control is at work to help you or hinder you.  There is no such thing in chess.