How to play a worse position?

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Elubas

Well, maybe your opponent came up with some very intelligent ideas, but if he ever lets you, under any circumstances, win his queen, then his chess priorities are not in order. Of course the win is legitimate; all that can be said is that you were able to beat him. You played as well as you had to play. It takes two to make a chess game. This is especially true when it comes to chess tournaments; in a casual game, perhaps results aren't as important to you and you want to start going over the game right away; then resigning is a practical decision, but I don't think anyone should be pressured into this choice.

GargleBlaster

At the expert level I've found that tenacity in chess will, on average, completely reverse the result of about one third of all lost games, possibly more.  At lower levels I'd guess it's even more important.

Here's an example:







Seraphimity

Dude, er um Master GargleBlaster, That's Insane!  Thank you for taking the time and notations I'm still grinning that is by far one of the more awesome Mated positions I've seen.   Assuming your queen sac was intended from what I read that was brilliant.  Tongue out

GargleBlaster
Seraphimity wrote:

Dude, er um Master GargleBlaster, That's Insane!  Thank you for taking the time and notations I'm still grinning that is by far one of the more awesome Mated positions I've seen.   Assuming your queen sac was intended from what I read that was brilliant.  

Thanks, but I think the trickier part was setting up things so he'd actually fall for it. :)

Btw, another thing in praise of stubborn defense - winning a game that way is in a weird way kind of like winning twice.

Elubas

Well, to be fair gargleblaster, most people, me for example, would not consider black's position to be near winning. Pleasant, but nothing fantastic. I'm not good in endgames, but I think houdini wouldn't be too enthusiastic for either side really. Whatever weaknesses white may have, he has avoided the worst of it: simply the fact that all of his pieces have room to breathe mean his army should be mobile enough to handle the pressure black puts on him, in my opinion. Pressure on just one pawn isn't as good as it looks, and your game sort of shows that. For example in the ...Qxc2 line you gave, white's active pieces make it difficult for black to make use of his extra pawn.

Of course, the topic does say "worse position" but I wouldn't call winning a slightly worse position a comeback.

Not to take away anything from the game, though. It was a nice game and I enjoyed your post.

waffllemaster

Maybe I would be rated 2000+ ...

Hell, maybe I'd be rated 2200+

GargleBlaster
Elubas wrote:

Well, to be fair gargleblaster, most people, me for example, would not consider black's position to be near winning. Pleasant, but nothing fantastic. I'm not good in endgames, but I think houdini wouldn't be too enthusiastic for either side really. Whatever weaknesses white may have, he has avoided the worst of it: simply the fact that all of his pieces have room to breathe mean his army should be mobile enough to handle the pressure black puts on him, in my opinion. Pressure on just one pawn isn't as good as it looks, and your game sort of shows that. For example in the ...Qxc2 line you gave, white's active pieces make it difficult for black to make use of his extra pawn.

Of course, the topic does say "worse position" but I wouldn't call winning a slightly worse position a comeback.

Not to take away anything from the game, though. It was a nice game and I enjoyed your post.

Thank you. 

As to what can be considered "losing", I dunno, I think it's a grey area, really, and I feel that unless I'm very alert as White in such a position the slope from slightly worse to getting completely ground down in uber-depressing fashion is slippery indeed.

That said, yes, it's certainly not completely losing by most standards outside of perhaps people playing Capablanca or Carlsen, and to be frank if I'm playing Carlsen the starting position could be considered objectively lost for me. :)

Elubas

"Maybe I would be rated 2000+ ...

Hell, maybe I'd be rated 2200+"

Not sure what you mean by this, but if it's a guess of your OTB rating without playing OTB chess, that's somewhat of a pet peeve of mine.

waffllemaster

No, I've made worse blunders than black in that example game, and I appreciate the example games people post :)

I'm just not sure if I'd call 5 or so moves of holding on a tenacious game.  I've battled worse positions for tens of moves and hours.  Very satisfying when you avoid the loss, so I can imagine how this game felt.

Seraphimity
GargleBlaster wrote:
Seraphimity wrote:

Dude, er um Master GargleBlaster, That's Insane!  Thank you for taking the time and notations I'm still grinning that is by far one of the more awesome Mated positions I've seen.   Assuming your queen sac was intended from what I read that was brilliant.  

Thanks, but I think the trickier part was setting up things so he'd actually fall for it. :)

Btw, another thing in praise of stubborn defense - winning a game that way is in a weird way kind of like winning twice.

winning twice, nice.  Ok thanks to the many fine contributions on this thread and others Im getting the picture. a win is a win.  it doesn't have to pretty. I suppose even Aeneas had his Sybil, the Spartans their Oracle.  

GargleBlaster
waffllemaster wrote:

No, I've made worse blunders than black in that example game, and I appreciate the example games people post :)

I'm just not sure if I'd call 5 or so moves of holding on a tenacious game.  I've battled worse positions for tens of moves and hours.  Very satisfying when you avoid the loss, so I can imagine how this game felt.

Yes, my example was intentionally brief; there's games where one side holds on for dear life for scores of moves. One instance of this was written about by Tim Krabbe in his blog:
 
 

 Here's the game without Krabbe's memorable comments:



 
 
 
 
 



Elubas

You know what's the worst though? Losing a position that you were initially losing in, but then were suddenly winning/drawing, but then messed up again.

You feel like you have climbed a mountain, under impossible odds, and suddenly you have transformed a lost game into a winning/drawing position, and all you have to do is convert that. But now that the shoe is on the other foot, you also show poor technique and let it just slip away. You wanted to tell everyone what amazing comeback you made, but ended up losing with the same dumb mistakes that got you into the losing position in the first place.

An example would be losing a piece in the opening, playing on enraged, but fighting valiantly, and by looking for every possible opportunity, taking advantage of mistakes, etc, with incredible fighting chess, manage to get into a position that can be saved, but finally, botch that position and lose after all! Since sometimes the opponent doesn't even make coming back down a piece possible, a chess player would probably cherish that moment, which makes the "heartbreak" just as bad when he doesn't take advantage of it.

It's like losing a won game, but even worse because you put more into it than most games.

waffllemaster

Wow, that's a heart breaker for white :(  IIRC the knight pawn makes this fortress work on almost any rank, but I put this in an EGTB and it is indeed lost.  There are some tricky positions to remember, but again IIRC when the queen forces the king in front it's more often than not a lost position.

I'll have to check out the annotations, thanks again for providing an example game.

Elubas

And imagine how many people would resign that position as black. This was a master game, I'm assuming?

GargleBlaster

Yup, both circa 2400 FIDE.

waffllemaster

It says Elista, so yeah, top level stuff.

waffllemaster

Oh wait, Elista isn't a major tourney, it was just the site of the WC match... heh nvm.

But ok he said they were 2400+  (they sure looked better than me anyway)