Agreed unclebilly.
I have the Solution to stop cheating in Live Chess!
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Mar 22, 2009
0
#43
immortalgamer wrote:
taijifan wrote:
You still haven't said why it's better than passive analysis, which is the approach the better live chess sites use.
you are joking right? ICC uses a system called speed timer (proactive not passive).
speedtrap analyzes games already played, which by definition makes it passive. It's an unbiased observer.
Don't confuse passive with reactive. I'm all for proactive analysis of games played to expose cheating, as long as it is analysis of games played, and not playing live games themselves to detect cheating.
Detecting cheating by cheating is, by definition, a bad idea.
has erik looked at this?
My rating is usually in the 1300s, but last night I beat someone in the 1800s, but I didn't need to cheat. I just think people are getting paranoid about cheaters, when someone with a lower rating beats them. I really don't think there is a problem here. I know that the person whom I beat last night is, overall, a better player than me, because he resigned after he saw the implications of my last move, but I still can't me see how I was going to win. I probably just got lucky. I couldn't ask him because I had the chat disabled (because I am an even worse player when I get into conversations).
Call me uninformed, but how does anyone have the time to consult with a chess engine in a live game that lasts all of 5-10 minutes, much more a blitz game of 5 minutes or under?
paul211 wrote:
You may be missing what a chess engine is all about. And do not get me wrong I have no clue about it.
At Xmas at my friend's place I beat Chessmaster Grandmaster that is, in 13 moves, I played I think an 1800 player level, I could be wrong but it was not less than 1700 rating. Some day when I learn how to post a game I will show everyone. I left it there with my score 1-0 and enjoyed the moment for a few weeks actually.
Considering your rating that's not surprising. You likely would have no chance against the chessmaster personality on a decent computer (2900ish)which takes full advantage of the engine and doesn't deliberatly make mistakes to simulate a lower ranked player.
This is nothing short of cutting off your nose to spite your face. In a bid to rid the site of cheaters, you would permanently introduce site-sanctioned cheating?
The current approach is effective, and chess.com gets to maintain its credibility.
This is a pretty terrible idea. Why?
-Tricks honest players into playing engines when they want to play humans
-Extremely labour intensive (it could be automated, but then defeated by chatting)
-Low efficacy!
For it to be effective you would need to have it running alot which means that instead of losing to cheaters we would just be losing to another computer looking for cheaters...
Awful idea.
In all honesty, it seems that you have become really paranoid about cheaters. Personally, I have drawn against Fritz easily quite often. All you need to do is play very drawish openings and it will trade into a rook ending. RyanMK is making a great point here. While I do see how this could be useful, it would not be a good thing for chess.com.
KillaBeez wrote:
In all honesty, it seems that you have become really paranoid about cheaters. Personally, I have drawn against Fritz easily quite often. All you need to do is play very drawish openings and it will trade into a rook ending. RyanMK is making a great point here. While I do see how this could be useful, it would not be a good thing for chess.com.
Give credit where credit is due. It's not me, but others that are making these points.
Bad idea. Id be pissed if I was playing someone using an engine "testing me". I think your just going to have to accept that cheating happens, and there are much more productive things that chess.com could do with their time. Unless they can adopt a detection system like playchess.com servers use.
Hey.. get Eric's attention on this; its a great idea.
Mar 22, 2009
0
#54
Are you really serious!!! I haven't read this thread but I'm sure this point has been brought up: the problem people have with cheaters is they don't like playing against a computer unknowingly. Your "solution" adds many more chances for this to be happening. All in all I'd say your "solution" makes the problem much worse than it would be by fixing it. Cheating in live chess only affects the upper echelon regularly, you are trying to change it so that it affects everyone on a regular basis.
This is a terrible idea. Your plan is to have people pose as 1500, 1700, 1900 rated players (and everything in between), but actually be cheating and using 2200+ rate chess engines?
And your justification is that the rating system is so flawless that you can say with 100% certainty that a low rated player can't beat or even draw against a higher rated player?
It is completely misguided. I don't want to be cheated by the mods when I am looking for an honest game against a live opponent at my rating.
An analogy: There is an invasion on Earth. Aliens are posing as regular people. Your plan is to start shooting at random people to see if their blood runs red or green. Not a good solution.
Also, the live chess is still a work in progress, and the ratings are not reliable in the least. It is completely possible that a player who should be able to draw in a blitz game against an engine might be rated much lower on the site due to disconnects, practicing silly openings, or they just don't care about their rating and aren't playing in a way that maintains it's true value.
immortalgamer wrote:
I just got this idea indirectly from a game posted by Newbie1995.
Cheating in live chess is a problem and we all know this. So how do we combat this overwehlming problem?
"The Cheater Kill Squad"
A team of moderators (who will remain unknown to anyone except the owners of chess.com). Will troll online looking to play games in live chess with anyone. Except they will use a variety of chess engines while playing. Their ratings will be manipulated so they do not become rated over 2100 no matter how many times they win. If someone happens to draw or beat them ever that person will automatically be removed from the site with their I.P address logged so they cannot join again.
It's sorta how Dateline on NBC catches those perverts looking for minors.
What do you think?
Seems to be a lot more proactive than the current system of just reporting abuse.
You'll never know if you are playing a cheat squad member or just another person. And the threat of automatic account deletion will be immediate and not take the staff's time in going over games that have been reported.
paul211 wrote:
Diomed wrote:
paul211 wrote:
You may be missing what a chess engine is all about. And do not get me wrong I have no clue about it.
At Xmas at my friend's place I beat Chessmaster Grandmaster that is, in 13 moves, I played I think an 1800 player level, I could be wrong but it was not less than 1700 rating. Some day when I learn how to post a game I will show everyone. I left it there with my score 1-0 and enjoyed the moment for a few weeks actually.
Considering your rating that's not surprising. You likely would have no chance against the chessmaster personality on a decent computer (2900ish)which takes full advantage of the engine and doesn't deliberatly make mistakes to simulate a lower ranked player.
My friend's computer is a 2.73 Mhz, up speeded, with 8 Gb of memory and has a quad core processor, 12Mb of l2 cache and a speed of 1333 fsb, front side bust. Not a small computer by any means and if I beat a super engine like this , whether it be once in a 100 games I wiil take it.
HEY! WHY COULDNT SOME GM DRAW WITH AN ENGINE? ITS POSSIBLE...
Inverness wrote:
There is an even easier and simpler solution with regards to cheating during blitz play. Player A is employing some sort of outside assistance. He minimizes his screen to consult with his silicon buddy and pops back with a reply. The system red flags this as a first time offense. Second time he is booted from the game and given a stern warning. Guarantee this will be better then some sort of humint intel!
This is also a terrible idea. I minimize the live chess screen all the time, and I am not a cheater.
If I found that the any chess site's screen was impossible to minimize, and the staff was lurking around with low ratings waiting to use an engine against me, I would never return to that site.
What is wrong with the current system, where if you think a player is cheating you report him and the staff takes a look through his games?
CRShelton wrote:
This is a terrible idea. Your plan is to have people pose as 1500, 1700, 1900 rated players (and everything in between), but actually be cheating and using 2200+ rate chess engines?
And your justification is that the rating system is so flawless that you can say with 100% certainty that a low rated player can't beat or even draw against a higher rated player?
It is completely misguided. I don't want to be cheated by the mods when I am looking for an honest game against a live opponent at my rating.
An analogy: There is an invasion on Earth. Aliens are posing as regular people. Your plan is to start shooting at random people to see if their blood runs red or green. Not a good solution.
Also, the live chess is still a work in progress, and the ratings are not reliable in the least. It is completely possible that a player who should be able to draw in a blitz game against an engine might be rated much lower on the site due to disconnects, practicing silly openings, or they just don't care about their rating and aren't playing in a way that maintains it's true value.
REALLY AGREED!!! I have played like 20 games on long live chess. won 10 lost 10. had over 1800 rating because I am not so bad and I can win people...but I wanted to give my ratings away to the poor-ones. so I resigned 10 games. now my rating is 1200 and my average rating of opponents is 1600. so how is that fair?? 1600 10 wins 10 losses and couple of draws. 1200 rating
Just a quick question - are the ratings here really that important? Why would you care if you lose once in a while, even to a cheater? You probably play here to improve yourself, so losing to an engine should help you to improve your game.
And how many cheaters can you have anyway? It's sort or boring to sit at your computer with an engine, mimicking its moves. I don't think many people would care.
Sorry - I haven't played live chess here before - so if the chess.com rating actually MEANS something or if you get prize money for high points or something, I take back my words, then it's a financial cheating matter that should be discouraged.