insufficient mating material

Sort:
FoxWithNekoEars

So i played this game here:

https://www.chess.com/game/live/40391446193

and it ended in a position where i had a knight and my opponent had a knight, a rook and a pawn but, they ran out of their time...
The game ended as a draw and i was a bit surprised because i am used to (from classic tournaments) that the game in case of flag end as a draw, only when there is no possible even only a theorethical way how to checkmate.
I tried to find some information about it and i learnt here: https://support.chess.com/article/128-what-does-insufficient-mating-material-mean

that Chess.com doesn't use the FIDE rules in this case but it uses American USCF version of that rules. According those the insufficient mating material means situation where there is no forced mate.
I would like to disscus these two ways of looking at the insufficient mating material.
I understand that the USCF rules should probably prevent some "dirty flags" like the one what i did in that game but what does that even mean "forced mate"?
I have like thousend questions about it. Sure a bishop and a knight is a forced mate and two knights is a possible mate but not forced, that know every chess player.. But how about two knights when the opponent has only one pawn? From what i know some of those positions are foreced wins but it all depends on the exact position and it can be really very hard to win them even for good chess players... the phrase "forced mate" kinda loses its meaning when its about position where both players can easily do a mistake.
And also how about those positions when you still have a pawn but opponent run out of the time? In many of those normaly isn't any forced mate by far but its somehow considered as a win ussually doesn't it? Isn't it weird? Alse there are blocked positions with pawns where is not only no forced but not even theorethical possible way how to win. What happen in that moment?
And how about a rook aginst a bishop? ..or rook against a knight... or cases with a pawn and the wrong bishop etc. etc.
And I could continue with many and many strange and bizare positions and with many more questions... 

Please discuss, tell me your opinion, explain me how these things work.

sndeww

Imagine coding those rules

Too much work

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel B1ZMARK napsal:

Imagine coding those rules

Too much work

True... it sounds terrible

FoxWithNekoEars

Also not even some USCF rules can stop my dirty flags~🦊
Check this one:  https://www.chess.com/game/live/40345166421 

sndeww
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:

No

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel B1ZMARK napsal:
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:

No

😿

Vegosiux

"Forced mate" simply means that perfect play from both opponents from that position will result in checkmate, the way I understand it.

If a mate follows a mistake of either of the players, then it's not "forced". In other words, to have a possibility of "forcing a checkmate", you need to be able to checkmate even when the opponent makes no mistakes.

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel Vegosiux napsal:

"Forced mate" simply means that perfect play from both opponents from that position will result in checkmate, the way I understand it.

If a mate follows a mistake of either of the players, then it's not "forced". In other words, to have a possibility of "forcing a checkmate", you need to be able to checkmate even when the opponent makes no mistakes.

yes but then the definition of USCF doesn't make sense.. Its normal that when you are losing and your opponent run out of time and there is enough material on both sides then you just win. But when you are losing then how there could be a forced mate? It all seems weird to me...

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel Gawain_Jones0 napsal:

Honestly, I didn't understand any of it as I never read all of it. Kindly shorten the paragraph and include the mainline you want to convey...

Lets summarize it in five words:

Lagomorph

White should have played :

57. Rxc8+  Kxc8

58. Ke7

 

But I understand they were in time trouble.

Kowarenai

i like the rule, its kinda fun but lichess follows FIDE so you could have won with knight lol

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel Lagomorph napsal:

White should have played :

57. Rxc8+  Kxc8

58. Ke7

 

But I understand they were in time trouble.

yeah...

eric0022

I wonder how Chess.com will rule the following impassable position.

 

 

 

Imagine Chess.com rules this as a win for the side having the time simply because of the surviving pawns.

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel eric0022 napsal:

I wonder how Chess.com will rule the following impassable position.

 

 

 

Imagine Chess.com rules this as a win for the side having the time simply because of the surviving pawns.

yeah exactly i would want to know how are solved situations like this

TheUltraTrap

OK so I can explain this I think.

1. @B1ZMARK I'm pretty sure it does not. All you need is a check for the pieces.

2. @eric0022. If there is a timeout in such position the player timed out simply loses - I faced this situation before, although most times I can get a draw by threefold repetition or even 50-move rule.

 

sndeww
TheUltraTrap wrote:

OK so I can explain this I think.

1. @B1ZMARK I'm pretty sure it does not. All you need is a check for the pieces.

2. @eric0022. If there is a timeout in such position the player timed out simply loses - I faced this situation before, although most times I can get a draw by threefold repetition or even 50-move rule.

 

You would need to program an algorithm that can find a possible mating position that might arise from any given position so I’d say that’s pretty hard

eric0022
TheUltraTrap wrote:

OK so I can explain this I think.

1. @B1ZMARK I'm pretty sure it does not. All you need is a check for the pieces.

2. @eric0022. If there is a timeout in such position the player timed out simply loses - I faced this situation before, although most times I can get a draw by threefold repetition or even 50-move rule.

 

 

There are some weird rulings on this site, one of which I am aware of (not certain if this has been corrected).

 

In a king and two bishops against lone king endgame (with nothing else on the board and the two bishops lie on the same colour squares), the side having the bishops win on time if the side having the lone king flags.

 


White wins on time on this site if Black's time goes to zero.

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel eric0022 napsal:
TheUltraTrap wrote:

OK so I can explain this I think.

1. @B1ZMARK I'm pretty sure it does not. All you need is a check for the pieces.

2. @eric0022. If there is a timeout in such position the player timed out simply loses - I faced this situation before, although most times I can get a draw by threefold repetition or even 50-move rule.

 

 

There are some weird rulings on this site, one of which I am aware of (not certain if this has been corrected).

 

In a king and two bishops against lone king endgame (with nothing else on the board and the two bishops lie on the same colour squares), the side having the bishops win on time if the side having the lone king flags.

 


White wins on time on this site if Black's time goes to zero.

bruh... that should be illegal

eric0022
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:
Uživatel eric0022 napsal:
TheUltraTrap wrote:

OK so I can explain this I think.

1. @B1ZMARK I'm pretty sure it does not. All you need is a check for the pieces.

2. @eric0022. If there is a timeout in such position the player timed out simply loses - I faced this situation before, although most times I can get a draw by threefold repetition or even 50-move rule.

 

 

There are some weird rulings on this site, one of which I am aware of (not certain if this has been corrected).

 

In a king and two bishops against lone king endgame (with nothing else on the board and the two bishops lie on the same colour squares), the side having the bishops win on time if the side having the lone king flags.

 


White wins on time on this site if Black's time goes to zero.

bruh... that should be illegal

 

In theory, yes.

 

Found the link.

 

https://www.chess.com/game/live/2449103502?username=fryedk

FoxWithNekoEars
Uživatel eric0022 napsal:
FoxWithNekoEars wrote:
Uživatel eric0022 napsal:
TheUltraTrap wrote:

OK so I can explain this I think.

1. @B1ZMARK I'm pretty sure it does not. All you need is a check for the pieces.

2. @eric0022. If there is a timeout in such position the player timed out simply loses - I faced this situation before, although most times I can get a draw by threefold repetition or even 50-move rule.

 

 

There are some weird rulings on this site, one of which I am aware of (not certain if this has been corrected).

 

In a king and two bishops against lone king endgame (with nothing else on the board and the two bishops lie on the same colour squares), the side having the bishops win on time if the side having the lone king flags.

 


White wins on time on this site if Black's time goes to zero.

bruh... that should be illegal

 

In theory, yes.

 

Found the link.

 

https://www.chess.com/game/live/2449103502?username=fryedk

damn..

 do you know how works two knights when other side has a pawn somewhere?