Is all chess POSITIONAL?

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ligaya81

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Lotus960
Vincidroid wrote:

Imagine chess as a battlefield of wits, where knights charge like caffeinated horses and pawns fight tooth and nail for a slice of glory. In this epic showdown, you've got two main strategies: the tactical tornado and the positional pondering.

Tactical play is like a swift ninja strike. It's all about quick calculations and fancy footwork, executing moves that make your opponent's head spin like a chessboard carousel. You're basically a chess magician, pulling rabbits out of hats and making their pieces disappear faster than Houdini on a caffeine high.

But wait, there's more! Enter the positional play, the grandmaster's secret weapon. It's like playing chess with a crystal ball. You zoom out and see the bigger picture, evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of each piece like a chess detective. You carefully arrange your forces, maneuvering like a chess general on a quest for world domination.

Both approaches have their charm, like a battle between hot chili peppers and smooth jazz. Some players dig the tactical tornado, while others vibe with the positional pondering. But the true chess wizards know that blending both is the ultimate recipe for success. It's like mixing a dash of explosive tactics with a sprinkle of strategic sorcery to create a chess masterpiece.

So, whether you're a ninja on the chessboard or a crystal ball-wielding sorcerer, embrace the chaos, strategize like a boss, and make those opponents bow down to your mighty chess skills! 🏆♟️😄

Very stylish writing! 👍

ligaya81

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1stPlaze

@OrdoSk

Cobra2721
IronSteam1 wrote:

Chess is a human construct. So it makes sense to play like a human, as well. As Grandmaster Aagaard advised in his book, Excelling at Chess: "Think like a human."

Because to try to think like an engine, or like a tablebase, would be a fool's errand. It would be like a human sprinter trying to "run like a car" - it simply can't be done, nor would it be helpful to attempt it.

Sure, it's true that, until chess is solved, we can't say with utmost certainty that any move is "best" in any given position.

But we don't need to - because we aren't engines, and neither are our opponents.

Making practical, reasonable (positional) decisions can take us quite far in chess.

Your moves don't always have to be "best" - as long as they're "good enough".

We can tell if a move is best in many positions, for example

I wonder which move here is best for white? Guess Ill never know until chess is solved !

MaetsNori

Well, okay ... tongue.png

More accurate of me would've been to say: "... until chess is solved, we can't say with utmost certainty that any move is 'best' in many given positions."

My main point is that "best" doesn't really matter. Not at the human level. Just play reasonable moves, and strive to ensure that your position is as good as, or better than, your opponent's.

You don't need to play "perfect" chess to win - you just need to play better than the other guy.

Cobra2721
IronSteam1 wrote:

Well, okay ...

More accurate of me would've been to say: "... until chess is solved, we can't say with utmost certainty that any move is 'best' in many given positions."

My main point is that "best" doesn't really matter. Not at the human level. Just play reasonable moves, and strive to ensure that your position is as good as, or better than, your opponent's.

You don't need to play "perfect" chess to win - you just need to play better than the other guy.

Ya I agree

chessterd5

I like to think of position and tactics as two stripes on a barber pole. they go hand in hand. they are intertwined. good positions limit tactics and tactics destroy bad positions.

MaetsNori
DesperateKingWalk wrote:

GM's are so bad with their positional understanding. GM's can not win a match with a computer even when given a forced winning position of 2 pawns advantage.

Hikaru drew both games there, against a "3400"-rated engine.

Depending on who you ask, 2-pawn odds would be the rough equivalent of a material advantage of 60 Elo to 200 Elo (given to the odds-receiving player).

Given that Hikaru drew both games, that would suggest that his performance rating for those two games, based on his opponent's rating, would be between 3200 and 3340.

That's not a bad performance rating for a human, considering he spent a large portion of his time using positional reasoning, rather than calculation, to choose his moves ...

Would Stockfish obliterate any human, from equal starting positions? Probably. But it's not because "GMs are so bad with their positional understanding". Stockfish would win because humans tend to miss things. A strong chess engine, such as Stockfish, misses very little at all.

This doesn't mean that the human will lose because positional understanding is worthless. Quite the opposite - positional understanding is the only reason why the human will be able to keep it a close game, until the point when it finally isn't.

It'll be a blunder that eventually loses the game for the human - an incorrect decision, due to a misevaluation somewhere. An oversight, perhaps, where the engine makes a move that the human didn't consider. Or a temporary lapse in concentration, that leads to a costly error.

So yes, that's where engines have the edge - they've been designed specifically to minimize the types of mistakes that we, as humans, tend to make.

But positional understanding still remains vital. It's what allowed David Howell (and 3 others chess players) to secure a draw against AlphaZero in 2018 - they steered the game into positionally drawish waters, and AlphaZero - with all its mechanical brilliance - was unable to find anything better ...

Cobra2721
IronSteam1 wrote:
DesperateKingWalk wrote:

GM's are so bad with their positional understanding. GM's can not win a match with a computer even when given a forced winning position of 2 pawns advantage.

Hikaru drew both games there, against a "3400"-rated engine.

Depending on who you ask, 2-pawn odds would be the rough equivalent of a material advantage of 60 Elo to 200 Elo (given to the odds-receiving player).

Given that Hikaru drew both games, that would suggest that his performance rating for those two games, based on his opponent's rating, would be between 3200 and 3340.

That's not a bad performance rating for a human, considering he spent a large portion of his time using positional reasoning, rather than calculation, to choose his moves ...

Would Stockfish obliterate any human, from equal starting positions? Probably. But it's not because "GMs are so bad with their positional understanding". Stockfish would win because humans tend to miss things. A strong chess engine, such as Stockfish, misses very little at all.

This doesn't mean that the human will lose because positional understanding is worthless. Quite the opposite - positional understanding is the only reason why the human will be able to keep it a close game, until the point when it finally isn't.

It'll be a blunder that eventually loses the game for the human - an incorrect decision, due to a misevaluation somewhere. An oversight, perhaps, where the engine makes a move that the human didn't consider. Or a temporary lapse in concentration, that leads to a costly error.

So yes, that's where engines have the edge - they've been designed specifically to minimize the types of mistakes that we, as humans, tend to make.

But positional understanding still remains vital. It's what allowed David Howell (and 3 others chess players) to secure a draw against AlphaZero in 2018 - they steered the game into positionally drawish waters, and AlphaZero - with all its mechanical brilliance - was unable to find anything better ...

Depends on which pawns do you start without, I wouldnt actually be terribly sad if I started without, say my A pawn

ligaya81

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CephalicCarnage
ligaya81 wrote:

What do YOU think?

Have you ever heard of the concept: "Higher Chess?"

Look at a book for Harry Schnapp. They're online books on CTG or whatever format you like. Move them with Arena (As in study them)

Maybe that is what you are referring to by positional?

Too many maybes though.

Definitely maybe.

It

Chessflyfisher

No.

hermanjohnell

Is all chess chess?

MaetsNori
DesperateKingWalk wrote:

I gave you incomplete information. As I wanted to see if you knew anything about what you are talking about. And it is clear you will just say anything.

If you think I'll "just say anything", then there's no point in continuing this conversation. I've raised several discussion points about the significance of positional understanding, most of which you've avoided responding to.

At this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Adieu ...

MaetsNori
chessterd5 wrote:

I like to think of position and tactics as two stripes on a barber pole. they go hand in hand. they are intertwined.

Agreed. As Fischer famously said: "Tactics flow from a superior position."

Alexeivich94

Tactical and positional are just superficial definitions that basically differentiate moves that are more strategic, in other words "positional", meaning simply that there is no immediate threat or effect but that the move is more of an investment for the future. A tactical move is talked about when the move is aimed to have an immediate effect, also "tactics" are moves that are hidden behind different chess mechanics making them more difficult for a human to see.

Cobra2721

Is all posiyional chess?

Cobra2721

Cool fact which shows that positional and tactical are quite dumb terms. Mikhail Tal was a super positional player, yes, I said positional, because all of his brilliant sacrifices and insane attacks wouldn't have been possible if, surprise surprise, he had a positionally worse position, like no control of center, weak pieces, weak king, weak squares, ect.

Whilst Karpov was a very tactical player, as in every position where he was squeezing his opponent apart, all the tactics in the position favoured him, rendering his opponent helpless.

See? You can call any player positional or tactical depending on what you wanna say, and back your point up. Because they are not two seperate entities, they are grouped togethor on the chess board, you wont be able to make brilliant sacrafices with loads of positional weaknesses, and you cant be positionally better if you have tactical problems.

Alexeivich94
cogadhtintreach wrote:

Cool fact which shows that positional and tactical are quite dumb terms. Mikhail Tal was a super positional player, yes, I said positional, because all of his brilliant sacrifices and insane attacks wouldn't have been possible if, surprise surprise, he had a positionally worse position, like no control of center, weak pieces, weak king, weak squares, ect.

Whilst Karpov was a very tactical player, as in every position where he was squeezing his opponent apart, all the tactics in the position favoured him, rendering his opponent helpless.

See? You can call any player positional or tactical depending on what you wanna say, and back your point up. Because they are not two seperate entities, they are grouped togethor on the chess board, you wont be able to make brilliant sacrafices with loads of positional weaknesses, and you cant be positionally better if you have tactical problems.

"you wont be able to make brilliant sacrafices with loads of positional weaknesses, and you cant be positionally better if you have tactical problems."

While true, this is also intentionally just using the definitions wrong. The terms are superficial yes, but you can make a move that could be seen as more stratetic or "positional" than tactical. Meaning there is no immediate threat or visible effect, but you are investing in the future with a slow move.