Forums

Is Chess Finally Dead?

Sort:
corum
lfPatriotGames wrote:
corum wrote:

For more than a century now it has been possible for machines to move faster than humans. However, this has no impact on the vitality of human competition. We still have the Olympics. We still celebrate 'the fastest man on earth' (typically the 100m race winner). 

Machines can also lift more weight than the strongest humans. But we still have human weight-lifting contests. Nobody says that weight lifting is dead. 

I just don't get why some people think that the fact that machines can play better chess than humans should have any impact on the vitality of human competition in chess. 

 

Because all of those examples are physical. Faster, stronger, quicker, more versatile machines dont make sports dead or less enjoyable. Like you said we still have the olympics and weight lifting. But in the case of chess, it's not physical. It's mental. So machines that perform better than humans when it comes to thinking make the activity less enjoyable. 

In almost all examples machines that are better than humans in physical ability dont really impact the enjoyment of those physical activities. But when a machine is better at thinking (like math or chess or computing) that competition becomes a lot less popular. 

Chess will never die. But it will never have the competition popularity it once had because now people are not as impressed as they once were.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. But I just don't agree with it. 

It's true the examples I gave were about physical prowess. But I don't see why it should be different if a machine is better at something mentally rather than physically. You say that 'humans in physical ability don't really impact the enjoyment of those physical activities. But when a machine is better at thinking (like math or chess or computing) that competition becomes a lot less popular.' - but stating that does not make it true. I cannot see why we should not enjoy playing chess with each other and competing to be the best in the world just because machines can do it better. I honestly just cannot see your argument. Why should be enjoy playing chess less if machines can play better than us? I just don't get it. Though I understand it is your belief.

And although I gave physical examples, I could have noted that there has been in decline in, for example, mathematical competitions over the last four of five decades despite the obvious fact that computers can do this better. We still have international Bridge tournaments. We still host coding competitions. 

In any event, before we seek reasons for why chess is becoming less popular we should ask whether chess is becoming less popular. I am not convinced that it is. A survey in 2012 estimated that > 600 million people play chess regularly in the world 

The USCF had 1000 members in the 1940s, growing slowly but steadily. Bobby Fischer transfixed the American public in particular of course. Membership boomed to about 60,000 in the mid 70s. But what has happened since? How many people are members of USCF today (2020)? The answer is over 90,000. And a great many of these are children where there has been a particular spike in interest recently. 

In other words, chess is growing in popularity in the USA not becoming less popular. So there is no reason to invent reasons (be it the dominance of computers or the growth of internet e-sports) to explain its decline. I have no doubt that an American World Chess Champion would generate huge interest in USA.

What about the rest of the word? Until a few decades ago hardly anyone played chess in China. Today there are an estimated 3 million people who play chess in China with > 300,000 being members of the Chinese ChesS federation 

If anything chess is growing in popularity. 

TeacherOfPain

Chess is a game that is fun and it is a game with vast information and knowledge to learn from. 

Saying that chess is becoming dead, would be ridicoulous at least for the time being. However the OP does say somthing that catches my attention and now thinking about it, the Era of Engines is here, and due to this it makes chess much less fun. It makes chess more about preparation instead of intuition. It makes chess seem like whoever has the most opening knowledge quite practically win, it makes chess seem like something more mechanical and less human in nature. 

I know this may sound odd, but it seems like engines are taking over the game, as think about it. Most Super GM's even all of them have significant preperation, but think about what happened before engines, such lines were not prepared and such moves were not even thought of, chess was just a gave or pure intuition and superior play that lead one person to win due to another person's mistakes. It was game that allowed people on top level play to duke it out from their understanding and pure playstlyes, no engine was here before the early 2000's so it makes it the more interesting how games developed at that time. However now 70% of all games in top tier play is draws and engines are definitley a contributing factor to this.

Now are engines bad because of this? No, of course not, they help people with their games, they are nice to watch play other engines and they bring a new course of action. However I will say we are coming to the point in which chess has less fun naturally and is becoming more of a mechanical game on the top tier level of super GM's and normal GM's and it is making imbalances(no pun intended) due to this.

It is a problem in mine eyesight and I wish engines were not such a priority in the lives of people and more of natural play, however it is what it is, and from what it is, there is no stopping engines being in the lives of chess players, and that's fine. But still the shift says that people don't like engines in top play and is ruining the game, the shift says that there are 70% of draws, the shift say that there will be more and more preperation needed in the game of chess rather than natural play based on style and intuition. 

This is what is happening in the world of chess due to it and it is a relationship that is making more people come but also making others leave the game because it is not quite the same, and can we blame them?

The only thing we can do is play the game and for the top contendors that play, they will play with the engines, but as for popularity currently it is well established, however in the future I would not be suprised if there is a major decline towards chess because of what is soon to come of heavy engine use and the lack of natural play in the game.

jacklee2010

I agree. Chess, is officially dead. However sports like baseball are not dead because you can't really use an engine in it

lfPatriotGames
jacklee2010 wrote:

I agree. Chess, is officially dead. However sports like baseball are not dead because you can't really use an engine in it

Chess will probably never die, but Teacher summed it up pretty well. Chess is certainly not as intriguing as it once was now that machines are much better. It's no longer the mysterious game that super smart people play. I agree with corum that more people probably play now. But that's mainly because the population is so much greater now. That, plus chess is curriculum in some schools now. 

I agree with you a sport, like baseball, is unaffected by machines (even though a machine can throw a fast ball much faster than any pitcher). i guess it's just human nature. A machine doesnt intimidate a physical endeavor like it does a mental one.

StevensGambit

Look. Chess as a way for me to earn a living probably died a thousand years ago when my forebears decided to take a Tea break at the wrong time at the battle of Hastings. Obviously computers are growing in abilities faster than humans are. Obviously they will overtake humans in everything. But Chess is not dead. The future is very dead but we will all be gone of old age and I have no children so I have no investment in the future. Chess will live as long as we do (I am approaching 50, anybody under 30 got a short straw),  For the time being, Unless a computer can be economically viable for making Chess bucks like fellas like Magnus etc. Chess is safe and sound. Deep Blue was supposed to be the end. Kasparov has gone from Brown Bear hair to Arctic Tundra short back and shine since then.

jacklee2010
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
jacklee2010 wrote:

I agree. Chess, is officially dead. However sports like baseball are not dead because you can't really use an engine in it

Incorrect

why

jacklee2010

list one

ifwe2020
No way
jacklee2010

it is! Soon chess will be a game for compuers only

jacklee2010

that's the bad side of tech

acceptablecheddar
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:

Ok. Chess isn't "officially dead" that's stupid.

I agree.

MARattigan
englishdraughts wrote:

When it's discovered that Chess is always a win for White, a win for Black, or a Draw with the best of play, then Chess will be as dead as English Draughts.

It isn't under FIDE basic rules these days. The game 

2n+1. Na3 Na6

2n.     Nb1 Nb8

for each n is complete but none of those.

King_of_Checkmates

:That wont happen in the foreseeable future

 

King_of_Checkmates

how is checkers dead

 

King_of_Checkmates

I am a 1900 and have memorized my most memorized opening just 16 moves. I have decided NOT to memorize too many openings,  instead focusing on manipulating ideas. Using MY approach will keep chess alive and growing!

King_of_Checkmates

memorize 8-10 moves for regular opening(other than extra-theoretical openings), for these openings, memorize about 12-16 moves

King_of_Checkmates

and focus mainly on the ideas

 

ChessPlayersLounge
chess_ka_khiladi wrote:

 

The current chess programs like Houdini and Rybka will trash any Chess Gradmaster (GM) including the current "World Champion" Magnus Carlsen in chess match. The Elo ratings of those programs are like at least 500 more than that of highest rated human, and modern day chess players (especially at highest level tournament play) seem to lack originality and just seem to consult chess engines for new ideas to beat their fellow human competitors. Whatever "new" idea or variation they (at GM level play) implement is analyzed on the engine first and hence the computer should get the real credit for their wins. They execute their plans by memorizing those lines, and the one with the best memory wins, unlike olden times when players tried new things over the board and used their skills and originality to win the game. 

Such being the case, is chess finally dead? Even Bobby Fischer seemed to have had the same opinion: "...Now chess is completely dead. It is all just memorisation and prearrangement. It’s a terrible game now. Very uncreative."
I think I am quitting tournament chess from today. I might still play it as a hobby from time to time, but I'm not going to participate or follow any tournaments as there seems to be little point in doing so. What are your thoughts?
 
  • There is still a point when you play a game of chess, for one you do not have to use an a i computer, when you play chess.

You still can play against other people in person, you can also ReDiscover and develop your own defenses, and most of all have fun with the game.

The point is in exercise your brain, so you can think faster, and keep your brain to function better.

There's many other points like that, for example chess is a very good conversation piece, you can eat dinner, and play chess, while having a conversation with your opponent.

The main point, when you play chess is to have F U N FUN, that's right!

I hope this is of some help to you, and maybe others.

Thank you for reading This, Have Fun with chessexplorer.png

 

Terminator-T800

No it's not dead & I don't think such a good game will ever die. It's impossible for this game to die if you ask me

 

ChessPlayersLounge
Terminator-T800 wrote:

No it's not dead & I don't think such a good game will ever die. It's impossible for this game to die if you ask me

That is so true.