Is it a disaster if Anand wins the candidates tournament?

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SmyslovFan

Ratings are good predictors of future events, but they are not perfect. Let's say that Carlsen, rated around 2880, were to play in a tournament of 7 other players, all rated at 2780 (100 points lower). He would be the easy favorite to win the tournament. But if we were to change the question to whether he would win, or anyone else in the field were to win the tournament, he would not necessarily be the favorite.

For a national master to make such a basic mistake in statistics and then call those who disagree with him "ratings fetishists" is almost unfathomable to me.

Here's a link to an article by a statistician who discusses the chances for Anand in the last world championship.

http://en.chessbase.com/post/are-the-che-world-champions-just-lucky--part-2-060913

In it, Matthew S. Wilson points out that a world championship match winner is only probably the better player! We can work out, statistically, the odds of the weaker player winning a match, and we can work out, statistically, what sort of a score a person would need to win a match by to be able to say with some certainty that he really was the better player. 

In a 12 game match (first to 6.5), the winner had to score a 7-3 victory in order to claim a "statistically significant result". Carlsen-Anand finished 6.5-3.5.

Here are some extended excerpts from that article:

 

To beat Anand 7–3, Carlsen will need a phenomenal performance rating of 2924; for a similar victory Anand will need an even more unlikely performance rating of 3011. But if the match were 24 games instead, then Carlsen would “only” have to perform at approximately 2866, which is quite possible given that he is currently rated 2862.

Thus, short matches make it difficult to achieve a statistically significant victory. But there is another danger that is of interest to more than just statisticians: in shorter matches, there is an increased chance that the weaker player will be crowned World Champion! Think of the most extreme case: a one game match. In Swiss system tournaments, the result of a round is determined by a single game. And it is not too unusual to see a 2000 player defeat a GM in large open tournaments. Of course this doesn’t prove that the 2000 player is better than the GM; unless something is spectacularly wrong with our rating system, the GM is the stronger player. Upsets are very much a possibility in one game matches, though the 2000 player would not stand a chance in a 24 game match. In general, short matches allow weaker players a decent chance of winning. This is how the FIDE knockout tournaments produced champions such as Kasimdhzhanov and how the 2011 Candidates cycle selected Gelfand as the challenger. Upsets were frequent in the two game knockout matches. For example, in this year’s World Cup, Gata Kamsky (2741) was held to a 1–1 draw by IM Yiping Lou (2484) and Judit Polgar was eliminated in round one.

The 2011 Candidates Matches consisted of four game and six game matches, and sent Gelfand to play against Anand. Gelfand is certainly among the world’s top chess players, but few would argue that he was the strongest opponent for the champion. None of Gelfand’s triumphs in the three matches were statistically significant, and he surely benefited from having Aronian and Kramnik knocked out before the final.

....

Anand–Carlsen 2013

A 12 game match is far shorter than my recommended 26 games, so should we be worried that the weaker player might win by chance? Normally this would be a concern, but here there is one factor working in our favor: a relatively wide gap in the ratings. On the September rating list, Carlsen is rated 2862 and Anand is at 2775. According to the ratings formula, Carlsen is expected to score 0.62 points per game on average in the match. Since Anand is so much lower rated than Carlsen, it is unlikely that he can score an upset even in such a brief match.

So what will happen? Let’s run some simulations of the match. In their classical games, 20 out of 29 were drawn, so the 66% draw rate is still a reasonable assumption. Of the remaining nine games, Anand actually has the edge: six wins, three losses. However, several of his victories occurred before Carlsen reached his full strength; Carlsen won both of the last two decisive games. The ratings system forecasts that Carlsen will average 0.62 points per game. If we combine this with the 66% draw rate assumption, then in each game Carlsen has a 29% chance of winning and 5% chance of losing. Here are the results from running 40,000 simulations of the match:

Probability that Carlsen wins
90.6%
Probability that Carlsen wins by a statistically significant margin (7-3 or better)
26.0%
Probability that Anand wins
3.0%
Probability of a drawn match
6.4%
 
SmyslovFan

So, according the statistics, it was far more likely that Carlsen would win 7-3 than Anand would win at all. The final score of that match was 6.5-3.5. 

From a statistical perspective, it will again be more likely that Carlsen will win by a large margin than Anand will draw or win. 

If the match were longer, the odds would be even worse for Anand fans.

To quote from that article again (and remember, Carlsen was "only" 2862 at the time):

The brevity of the match mitigates Anand’s disadvantage: in a 24 game match with a 66% draw rate, he loses in 98% of the match simulations and wins only 0.7% of the matches. But in a twelve game match, maybe he’ll just get lucky.

fabelhaft

I think it would be great if Anand won, hard to find a more sympathetic top player. He really has done well in qualifiers over the years, ever since the 1994-95 Candidates.

Polar_Bear
johnmusacha wrote:

I'm interested in knowing from what nation NM Pacifique got his NM title.  He is the only NM I've seen on this site of nine millions with an "international" designation.

Judging by his English skills, I don't think he is a US or Canadian NM.  Just wondering.

If he got the NM title in the former USSR area, he must have at least IM level.

And btw, account "johnmusacha" has very infamous history. You can't count yourself among chess players anymore. Considering these facts, you are pretty cheeky.

Pacifique
Polar_Bear wrote:
johnmusacha wrote:

I'm interested in knowing from what nation NM Pacifique got his NM title.  He is the only NM I've seen on this site of nine millions with an "international" designation.

Judging by his English skills, I don't think he is a US or Canadian NM.  Just wondering.

If he got the NM title in the former USSR area, he must have at least IM level.

And btw, account "johnmusacha" has very infamous history. You can't count yourself among chess players anymore. Considering these facts, you are pretty cheeky.

NM`s from former USSR area are not so strong after the breakup of the  USSR, as the best of them have more chances to get international titles. I have 2 IM norms actually and all I need for IM title is to get third norm and rise my ELO up to 2400 (which seems to be the toughest task, due to my unequal OTB results).

But it`s offtopic.

Polar_Bear
Rumo75 wrote:
Polar_Bear hat geschrieben:

Performance statistics can be applied in games of luck (e.g. poker), not in chess. Please do not ignore the pure fact chess is game of skill. Although other factors also exist, none of them are random.

Of course there is luck in chess. Yesterday you played against genius god of chess Chucky. Today your main rival plays against patzer not-able-to-manage-time-properly Chucky. Tough shit!

Random factors also do exist in the game of chess itself because the calculation of humans and even of computers has a limited horizon. Means: Behind each player's horizon there may or may not be resources for either side that they can't possibly know about, provided there's no forced win or draw in sight. The better calculator and tactician may be able to spot them earlier on, but if the tactics just don't work out for him, he can't capitalize on it. Simple example that everyone has seen dozens of times: Player goes for a sacrificial line because he sees he has at least a perpetual check. When the position appears on the board he works it out. Good luck: There is a win. Bad luck: No win, he has to go for the perpetual.

Politely, but disagree.

In short: smelling things and resources behind the horizon - it is called intuition and it is integral part of playing skills. If a player has weak intuition and goes into sacrificial line not able to calculate it correctly, he can't blame bad luck.

"And luck can play a major role in small samples."

I quit reading the Wilson's BS here, since obviously he has no clue.

Rumo75
Polar_Bear hat geschrieben:

Politely, but disagree.

In short: smelling things and resources behind the horizon - it is called intuition and it is integral part of playing skills. If a player has weak intuition and goes into sacrificial line not able to calculate it correctly, he can't blame bad luck.

"And luck can play a major role in small samples."

I quit reading the Wilson's BS here, since obviously he has no clue.

That is a good point. Yes, there is intuiton. But unlike calculation, intuition isn't exact. Intuition can suspect that there is probably some resource. When you have many pieces concentrated on an undefended king, there will probably be a tactical solution. But by definition intuition is always fallible, and that's where I see luck being a factor. Of course a good player's intuition fails much less often than a bad player's one.

I'd also like to mention that I pretty much liked everything Irontiger contributed to this thread, and it's a pity that he apparently got trolled out by Pacifique's playing the "I have the bigger ELO penis" card. 

Irontiger
Rumo75 wrote:

...and it's a pity that he apparently got trolled out by Pacifique's playing the "I have the bigger ELO penis" card. 

To be fair, he did not play that card, except maybe in #246/248 towards Scottrf, but it was more abuse that muscle-showing-off. It is pretty obvious that those two have a flamewar going.

jesterville

In any sport there is some "luck" involved. When your opponent chooses to goes down the exact line you home-cooked is that not luck? You get up feeling sickly this morning...the morning you face a weak opponent, and you end up blundering because of your illness...is this not luck for him? I would imagine that grave news the morning of your game might affect your concentration causing your loss...is this not bad luck for you? What about lack of sleep the night before a game...could this not affect your play negatively?...and would this be his good luck?

Bartleby73

I have been told that chess is 7% luck whereas Poker is 28% luck. 

Rumo75
Irontiger hat geschrieben:
Rumo75 wrote:

...and it's a pity that he apparently got trolled out by Pacifique's playing the "I have the bigger ELO penis" card. 

To be fair, he did not play that card, except maybe in #246/248 towards Scottrf, but it was more abuse that muscle-showing-off. It is pretty obvious that those two have a flamewar going.

You are right, my mistake. Scottrf (another person who contributed quite a lot of sense to this thread) was the target of his ad hominem attacks.

sparta1313

yes true that anand lost in the chess championship match bt he recovr from his loss and again doing fight like wounded tiger so this time carlsan hav to be careful cuz anand wil gain wat he has lost earlier

Ubik42
tigerprowl wrote:
Bartleby73 wrote:

I have been told that chess is 7% luck whereas Poker is 28% luck. 

Chess can be 100% luck if the opponent blunders.  If Carlsen blundered during a simul, maybe that would be a miracle or the end of existence. Have to ask Stephen Hawking about that.  Maybe a black hole would suck the Earth.

Blundering is pure luck. The chances of me blundering, or Carlsen blundering, are the same.

Rumo75

Anyway, he did it, and deservedly. It's official now. One round before the end it's not possible to catch up to him. Had the tournament standings been different, he would probably have not accepted the repitition and converted his winning advantage. I would have prefered a different challenger, as I don't consider Anand one of the world's five best players anymore, but in this tournament he was certainly best by a large margin.

jesterville

So who is your top 5 FM Rumo75?

blitzjoker

Er, there's two rounds left. Smile

Rumo75

My top 4 are:

1. Carlsen

2. Aronian

3. Caruana

4. Kramnik

Spot 5 is tricky actually. Yes, after this tournament I might place Anand on shared 5th, together with Nakamura.

Rumo75
blitzjoker hat geschrieben:

Er, there's two rounds left.

Oops. Right. Then I suppose what I said about the perpetual was wrong, and we have to wait for one more day to congratulate. Smile

Pacifique
Rumo75 wrote:

Anyway, he did it, and deservedly. It's official now. One round before the end it's not possible to catch up to him.

Two rounds left to play, actually. If Karjakin beats Anand in 13th round and Aronian in 14th round (which is not too believable) and Anand does not win 14th round, then Karjakin is the winner.

blitzjoker

Yes this isn't quite over yet.  Round about this time last year it looked as if Carlsen would cruise to victory, though in the end it was very tight.  Anand may still regret not killing it off today.

If Anand loses his nerve against Svidler, who is quite capable of beating him on a good day in the last round, there's still a bit to play for.  Mind you, still looks like 90% Anand for the win as the youngsters say.