Mugo345 wrote:
Is there such thing as "luck" in chess?
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Jun 2, 2022
0
#1602
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
Cool...."Is wind part of golf?" You never know what you might learn on chess.com.
Maybe someone here can tell us what a woman is.....
So the pregnant woman goes to the doctor for her checkup. She asks the doctor, "doc, can you tell me if it's a boy or a girl". The doctor nervously responds, "I'm sorry, that's a little above my pay grade, you'll have to ask a kindergarten teacher to get their opinion.".
Perfect! I love it!
So.....any kindergarten teachers here?
CooloutAC wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Do you need them to mention gravity too for it to be considered part of the game? lol.
This may not be as simple as you think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvZB7niY98w
CooloutAC wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mikekalish wrote:
Cool...."Is wind part of golf?" You never know what you might learn on chess.com.
Maybe someone here can tell us what a woman is.....
So the pregnant woman goes to the doctor for her checkup. She asks the doctor, "doc, can you tell me if it's a boy or a girl". The doctor nervously responds, "I'm sorry, that's a little above my pay grade, you'll have to ask a kindergarten teacher to get their opinion.".
OK, back to luck in chess. Just like everyone else, I too was surprised to learn that wind is a game design of golf. It's not mentioned anywhere in the Rules of Golf, or the Royal and Ancient as game design. Apparently 500 years ago when the design of golf was originally laid out they didn't know what they were talking about, we all had to wait until the 21st century for an internet crackpot to set them straight.
Do you need them to mention gravity too for it to be considered part of the game? lol. If wind wasn't supposed to be a part of golf they would play indoors. The whole point of golf is to play in the natural environment and wind is always a part of that. Water, sand, different levels of grass, trees, etc.. You are desperately reaching when you say sports are based on luck and wind is not a part of golf. wow. What they have rules for is for the goals of the game and things to ensure fair play. Like when you wrongfully said it was bad luck for an animal to take a ball, when there is a rule in place to make sure that doesn't negatively affect the player, because unlike wind, that is not accounted for or intended to be part of the game.
Why don't you post the cambridge definition of luck again, and leave out 2/3rds of it, especially the parts that don't support your false claim that chance is the same thing as luck lol. Maybe mpaetz should claim again I'm making up the definitions containing action or ability. You really truly believe that I am of the minority opinion eh? Because the only ones arguing with me are a bunch of regular forum trolls who don't even play games here? Keep lying to yourself, fine by me.
Its been a past time of mine for 30 years exposing fakes in gaming forums. For the past 4 years you've been running around here unchecked it seems. Keep digging a hole.
As usual, you completely make things up when you know you can't honestly respond. I never said sports are based on luck. Ever. I would appreciate it if in the future you feel the need to keep doing things like that, please just quote me. You don't like my dictionary quote? Quote what I actually said instead of what you think I said.
I'm fairly certain you quickly go off the rails is because you know that staying on topic isn't going to help your cause. There have been many examples of luck in sports, such as something that happens AFTER someone performs a specific task. The football example is as good as any. Once a player kicks the ball, there is NOTHING they can now do to affect the outcome. So some things beyond the kickers control influencing the result are luck. It's just that simple.
And yes, you are the minority opinion. Still waiting for anyone to agree with you that there is no luck, at all, in sports.
This isn't that much different than chess, although not from environmental factors. One definition of luck is "to prosper or succeed through chance or good fortune". If one player makes a completely random move, with no plan, idea, strategy or motive the other player would certain benefit (or possibly suffer) from that move. It could be good fortune for the second player that the first player had no idea where to move, and simply moved a piece for absolutely no reason. That would simply be luck.
The cambridge definition works just fine too. It's YOUR definition that is suspect. I prefer to use the dictionary definitions, but you are free to make up your own definition.
And yes, I brought up wind in the game of golf because that is a random event that can affect the result. A gust of wind coming up after a shot is made is luck. There really isn't any way to argue against that, but you seem to feel otherwise.
As far as I know, you are the only person here (or anywhere for that matter) who believes there is zero luck in sports. You still have not explained how the examples given are not luck. Something that happens AFTER a throw, a shot, a kick, etc are no longer in the control of the player. He is at the mercy of things he has no control over. And those things, can and do randomly affect the result. That is luck. If you cannot comprehend that, then it seems likely there are many other things you cannot comprehend.
Jun 3, 2022
0
#1607
CooloutAC wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Wind is part of the game design and every other player is playing in the same conditions. And you do have control over it, again the test is if you can go back and time and replay the shot can you better account for the wind? The answer is yes. If it was luck, no amount of skill could change things. That is an important distinction when applying the word to games.
A couple of thoughts:
Wind is not part of the game design of golf. Golf tournaments are postponed or canceled due to high winds or other weather conditions. The reason is that in such circumstances the contest is not as clear-cut a measure of the golfers' skills.
What other players might do in the same conditions has nothing to do with the fact that what a skilled player thought was a perfect shot was ruined by an unknowable weather phenomenon.
The "test" will always fail--no one can go back in time. Events happen. If something unpredictable occurs and alters the outcome of the player's skillful endeavors the Time Lords are not going to show up to fix things. Would things have gone differently had the golfer known there was to be a sudden gust wind that would affect their shot? Very likely. You are suggesting that skill can win out in such situations only through the use of psychic powers to see the future or sci-fi impossibilities.
It absolutely is part of the game design of golf my friend. So are the trees and the environment in general. It is intended to be played in. Its even a part of golf video games. First of all you have no idea if the shot was ruined or not, which is why Patriot couldn't blame her shot on it. I've never heard a golf announcer say too bad for that gust of wind, its definitely not common. But we do know that good players can adjust to the wind and make shots consistently in it, its a huge part of the game, to say the wind is not part of golf, is lying to oneself to suit a false narrative. I find it shameful.
And for you to say other players playing in the same conditions are irrelevant, once again shows you lack a sense of sports and understanding of competitive games, and why the words skill and luck exist. First of all it would not be lucky or unlucky unless there was some sort of reward. Meaning beating other players. Now sure golfers can play against themselves, but we are talking the competitive nature of the game as it is intended, just like chess is intended to be played against other players. In fact, when you measure skill levels, it is in relation to other players.
Only a fool would think I meant to go back in time literally, the point is your skill affects the outcome and you can increase your chances with practice in the same conditions. If it was based on luck, no amount of practice would change your probability of making the shot
Wrong on all counts. Many games meant to be played outdoors are not played in all weather conditions. Have you never heard of baseball games being rained out? FIFA, the world soccer governing organization, moved the World Cup (the world's biggest sports event) from its usual July dates to November this year because of the extreme summer heat in Qatar. Golf is another such sport--tournaments are indeed delayed or rounds cancelled because of excessively windy conditions.
How are the other golfers affecting the shot? They are required to stand out of the player's field of vision and keep quiet. Golfers make their shots strictly on their own. A golfer may choose to try a more difficult shot to try to save a stroke in a tight match, but that is NOT the situation Patriot was describing.
As for your absurd claim that a player could improve their performance by "going back in time" and practicing that play, the only way to practice that exact play is to have the same exact conditions--divots or soft spots on the field, gusts of wind coming along, position and momentum of all the other players, and all other factors that might affect the play--identical to the unlucky failed attempt. You would have to literally go back in time to duplicate the exact situation.
Jun 3, 2022
0
#1608
CooloutAC wrote:
I don't believe wind is lucky or unlucky because professional golfers account for the wind and it is part of the game for everyone competing in the tournament over 18 holes.
Just another disgusting bit of dishonesty. No one said anything about a lot of players playing 18 holes. The situation was described as what happened to one shot by one player on one hole. You can't refute that so you pretend to reply by talking about something completely different. Why must you continually resort to this dishonest misrepresentation of what others have said?
That's a good point. When a gust of wind comes up after a shot is played, and affects the outcomes, there is no way to duplicate that. Golf is a game of inches, but in many cases the margin for error is much, much smaller than that. So a a gust of wind (or even the sun going behind a cloud or humidity change) can affect a shot after the shot has been played. We've all seen shots hit on 17 at TPC Sawgrass that hit the edge of the wooden barrier around the green. On one spot the bounce could go straight up, and on to the green, but a tiny fraction of an inch to one side and the bounce puts the ball in the water. All because of some random event that happened AFTER the player played his shot. The only way to say that's not luck is to say luck doesn't even exist. But if luck doesn't exist, why is there a word for what happens in those situations?
Jun 3, 2022
0
#1610
CooloutAC wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Wind is part of the game design and every other player is playing in the same conditions. And you do have control over it, again the test is if you can go back and time and replay the shot can you better account for the wind? The answer is yes. If it was luck, no amount of skill could change things. That is an important distinction when applying the word to games.
A couple of thoughts:
Wind is not part of the game design of golf. Golf tournaments are postponed or canceled due to high winds or other weather conditions. The reason is that in such circumstances the contest is not as clear-cut a measure of the golfers' skills.
What other players might do in the same conditions has nothing to do with the fact that what a skilled player thought was a perfect shot was ruined by an unknowable weather phenomenon.
The "test" will always fail--no one can go back in time. Events happen. If something unpredictable occurs and alters the outcome of the player's skillful endeavors the Time Lords are not going to show up to fix things. Would things have gone differently had the golfer known there was to be a sudden gust wind that would affect their shot? Very likely. You are suggesting that skill can win out in such situations only through the use of psychic powers to see the future or sci-fi impossibilities.
It absolutely is part of the game design of golf my friend. So are the trees and the environment in general. It is intended to be played in. Its even a part of golf video games. First of all you have no idea if the shot was ruined or not, which is why Patriot couldn't blame her shot on it. I've never heard a golf announcer say too bad for that gust of wind, its definitely not common. But we do know that good players can adjust to the wind and make shots consistently in it, its a huge part of the game, to say the wind is not part of golf, is lying to oneself to suit a false narrative. I find it shameful.
And for you to say other players playing in the same conditions are irrelevant, once again shows you lack a sense of sports and understanding of competitive games, and why the words skill and luck exist. First of all it would not be lucky or unlucky unless there was some sort of reward. Meaning beating other players. Now sure golfers can play against themselves, but we are talking the competitive nature of the game as it is intended, just like chess is intended to be played against other players. In fact, when you measure skill levels, it is in relation to other players.
Only a fool would think I meant to go back in time literally, the point is your skill affects the outcome and you can increase your chances with practice in the same conditions. If it was based on luck, no amount of practice would change your probability of making the shot
Wrong on all counts. Many games meant to be played outdoors are not played in all weather conditions. Have you never heard of baseball games being rained out? FIFA, the world soccer governing organization, moved the World Cup (the world's biggest sports event) from its usual July dates to November this year because of the extreme summer heat in Qatar. Golf is another such sport--tournaments are indeed delayed or rounds cancelled because of excessively windy conditions.
How are the other golfers affecting the shot? They are required to stand out of the player's field of vision and keep quiet. Golfers make their shots strictly on their own. A golfer may choose to try a more difficult shot to try to save a stroke in a tight match, but that is NOT the situation Patriot was describing.
As for your absurd claim that a player could improve their performance by "going back in time" and practicing that play, the only way to practice that exact play is to have the same exact conditions--divots or soft spots on the field, gusts of wind coming along, position and momentum of all the other players, and all other factors that might affect the play--identical to the unlucky failed attempt. You would have to literally go back in time to duplicate the exact situation.
My friend. where did I say all outdoor games are supposed to be played in all weather conditions? Golf is simply not one of those games, and the rain and wind are intended to be played in and part of golf. period. I mentioned how the environment is even artificially created to supplement various natural elements which, again, are intended.
Golf tournaments are a competition between players. Something is only unlucky or lucky if one golfer has been disadvantaged. That would not only be considered unfair, it would not be sporting. The reason other sports are called off, is because winning by season is different especially in different areas. Teams mostly playing in rainy areas would be disadvantaged, or teams not used to play in raining areas. Do you understand? The baseball commission deems that unfair. In golf all players are playing in the same tournament in the same conditions. Not only is it not out of the player's control, but it is also not just a factor for one player alone.
Are you saying golfers can't practice in the wind to improve their chances? You would be dead wrong and again sound desperate and reaching.
A couple of observations:
Differences in climate in baseball teams' homes have nothing to do with games being called because of rain. It's because wet balls make pitching and throwing much more problematic, wet fields make footing uncertain and the like--all of which make the contest a lesser test of skill than intended. Also, wild pitches and slips while running increase the chances of injury. And fans don't want to come sit in the rain.
What the ultimate result of the contest might be bears no relation to whether something that happened in a single play or shot may have been affected by luck. A golfer may go on to win the tournament by a wide margin or overcome their bad luck on one hole by great play later. That doesn't change the fact that something that happened earlier was (un)lucky.
Golfers, soccer players, all athletes can practice all they want in whatever conditions they choose but can never exactly duplicate the unusual conditions that affected that (un)lucky situation. No mater how many times a placekicker practices field goals, he can never be adequately prepared for the "hawk" wind blowing a 60 mph gust over Soldier Field in Chicago after the ball is kicked and moving a ball heading right on target to get blown all the way to the sidelines.
CooloutAC wrote:
It absolutely does, because for pitchers who are not used to throwing in wet conditions it will be problematic while those who play year round in those conditions will have an unfair advantage, as one reason why. Golf is different, everyone competes in the same conditions for the same prize at the same time.
You can't say results are irrelevant, because they are a major part of the definition of luck. You can't deem something successful or failed otherwise. The goal of a tournament or season is to win.
On the same token you can't even conclude or prove the wind affected anything, this is just your assumption at your own convenience to satisfy your own personal narrative at your whim. What we can conclude and what we know fore sure, are the actions and force of the golfer affecting the ball. But it seems now you have moved on to goal kickers in football or soccer. That changes nothing. They absolutely can practice in 60 mile an hour winds, but usually American football teams will judge the wind and decide to kick accordingly. It would not be considered lucky or unlucky because they choose to, and for the all the reasons I have previously stated.
Again I have to ask, do you EVER tell the truth? "golf is different, everyone competes in the same conditions for the same prize at the same time". This is 100% false. The goal of course is for that to happen, but in reality it almost never happens.
Every single week you will hear announcers explaining the differences between the morning and afternoon tee times. Conditions are often very, very different. Not just wind, but also heat and humidity. Conditions can change drastically in 4 hours. From greens drying out to wind picking up, to temperature changes, to the grass growing. For very fast greens these all make a big difference.
For whatever reason you are unable or unwilling to comprehend the idea that conditions change AFTER the shot (or kick or throw, etc depending on the sport) is made. It's literally impossible to predict or account for it because it's random. It may, or may not happen. What good is practicing for 60 mph wind on a kick if a split second after the kick the wind stops? What happens is an embarrassing kick. Someone was intentionally aiming way off target, allowing for the wind. But the wind stops midflight and the ball sails way off line.
The video you posted is completely pointless for this conversation, unless it teaches how to control the golf ball after it's been hit.
To keep discussion relevant to luck in chess I wouldn't like to discuss external factors like wind etc as they don't apply to chess or develop the topic...
But since a claim has been made (I assume) that wind in golf for example doesn't force an element of luck in the game - Isn't it possible that direction and/or speed of wind changes while the ball is in the air? This kind of external variable cannot be accounted for by the players.
Edit. Well, same point already mentioned above
Kotshmot wrote:
To keep discussion relevant to luck in chess I wouldn't like to discuss external factors like wind etc as they don't apply to chess or develop the topic...
But since a claim has been made (I assume) that wind in golf for example doesn't force an element of luck in the game - Isn't it possible that direction and/or speed of wind changes while the ball is in the air? This kind of external variable cannot be accounted for by the players.
Edit. Well, same point already mentioned above
That's fair. I think what happened is when several examples were given of luck in chess one poster went on to say not only is there no luck in chess, there is no luck in sports either. It was supposed to compare the two, which often happens during disagreements.
So to show how wrong he is about one part of his belief, it was shown how wrong he is about the other part of his belief. Ultimately I suppose it's up to the OP to decide if luck in chess and luck in sports is worth comparing.
CooloutAC wrote:
"I always tell the truth. "
Well, since I don't know any actual lies you've told, I can't legitimately refute this statement. However, assuming you are a typical human being, I would find this extremely hard to believe. I've never known anyone who "always tells the truth", but I've known some who claim to.
Jun 3, 2022
0
#1615
Kotshmot wrote:
To keep discussion relevant to luck in chess I wouldn't like to discuss external factors like wind etc as they don't apply to chess or develop the topic...
But since a claim has been made (I assume) that wind in golf for example doesn't force an element of luck in the game - Isn't it possible that direction and/or speed of wind changes while the ball is in the air? This kind of external variable cannot be accounted for by the players.
Edit. Well, same point already mentioned above
Some time back Mr. Cool declared that chess was a "skill sport" and that like ALL pure "skill sports"--in which category he included everything that doesn't use dice or some deliberate randomizing device--there CANNOT POSSIBLY BE ANY LUCK in the game, ever. Obviously ridiculous, but you see the lengths to which he will go to prove he was correct. Some of us have tried to demonstrate the existence of lucky breaks in most skill sports (a fact any player will agree to) in order to show that his claim, and the inclusion of chess in that category, is laughable.
And one bit of speculation.... If there ever were a person who "always told the truth", I bet that person would never feel the need to announce that fact.
Jun 3, 2022
0
#1617
CooloutAC wrote:
You can't say results are irrelevant, because they are a major part of the definition of luck. You can't deem something successful or failed otherwise. The goal of a tournament or season is to win.
On the same token you can't even conclude or prove the wind affected anything, this is just your assumption at your own convenience to satisfy your own personal narrative at your whim. What we can conclude and what we know fore sure, are the actions and force of the golfer affecting the ball. But it seems now you have moved on to goal kickers in football or soccer. That changes nothing. They absolutely can practice in 60 mile an hour winds, but usually American football teams will judge the wind and decide to kick accordingly. It would not be considered lucky or unlucky because they choose to, and for the all the reasons I have previously stated.
Horsebleep again. Now you claim that we can't tell whether any play in the course of any competition was (un)lucky until the finish. Should a basketball player in the first quarter slap the ball out of an opponent's hands only to have it bounce off another player's head into the hoop that wouldn't be a lucky break unless the team that benefitted won by one or two points? How about a player making an amazing no look shot--would it not really be great skill if his team lost anyway? Something fortuitous happening when the player wasn't trying to accomplish it is not skill, and you always assert that the opposite of skill is luck.
There is no way to practice kicking a field goal with a 20 mph crosswind turning into a 60 mph gust AFTER the ball is in the air. Perhaps you can find a video of the 49ers-Bears game from Nov. 13, 2005 when a field goal try in such circumstances led to a then-record 108 yard TD return. You could literally see the ball change direction in mid-air. Of course the same thing could happen to a golf shot or fly ball, etc. There is NO way the athlete in those plays could make the ball do that. Unless you believe in leprechauns or other supernatural forces, it must have been the wind.
Jun 3, 2022
0
#1619
But how can you tell that a moderately stiff breeze will turn into a gale-force gust AFTER you have kicked the ball into the air? Realize that an American-rules 50-yard field goal will have to travel 60 yards in the air to clear the crossbar, meaning it is equivalent to hitting the goal from beyond mid-field in English football with those erratic wind conditions. It is not poor allowance for the wind that make for bad luck, it is the sudden severe change in the wind after the ball has left the kicker's foot, a circumstance beyond human control.
Cool...."Is wind part of golf?" You never know what you might learn on chess.com.
Maybe someone here can tell us what a woman is.....
So the pregnant woman goes to the doctor for her checkup. She asks the doctor, "doc, can you tell me if it's a boy or a girl". The doctor nervously responds, "I'm sorry, that's a little above my pay grade, you'll have to ask a kindergarten teacher to get their opinion.".
OK, back to luck in chess. Just like everyone else, I too was surprised to learn that wind is a game design of golf. It's not mentioned anywhere in the Rules of Golf, or the Royal and Ancient as game design. Apparently 500 years ago when the design of golf was originally laid out they didn't know what they were talking about, we all had to wait until the 21st century for an internet crackpot to set them straight.