Magnus Carlsen is an embarrassment

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lfPatriotGames
Khrissy wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Khrissy wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
stiggling wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Who wants to watch two humans play like computers when two actual computers can do it better.

If you were paying attention, you'll notice how they didn't play like computers... but ok, more whining from the peanut gallery.

What was the worldwide viewership? From the results I saw, they played 12 games in a row that ended in draws. which means they both played very well and very equally. And very boring. That's what computers do.

ACTUALLY,  humans draw games too, and the entire game didn't exactly have to be equal.  In fact,  some of the classical games were *Very* winning for one side until they were out of their prep and screwed it up.  Watch again when you learn a little about chess, you're not sharp enough to appreciate it yet

We've had over a hundred years to appreciate it. Just like Sears, its time has come and gone. You dont have to be a major stockholder to appreciate WHY Sears is going bankrupt. And you dont have to be a grandmaster to appreciate WHY the world chess championship is losing appeal. 

I'm just saying times change. There are no more fax machines. There are no more rotary phones. Major chess championships used to be interesting. This one clearly was not interesting, as 12 boring draws in a row attests to. People who attended the event say the same thing. It was, boring, dull, sterile and unenthusiastic. Sort of like Sears.

All of the same appealing things are still here.  The difference is as chess become more sophisticated YOU need to become more sophisticated to appreciate it.  This was the most exciting and most fighting WCC we've ever had by a mile.  You aren't strong enough to recognize a boring, dull or sterile professional game but that isn't surprising because you also aren't strong enough to perceive the threats in your own games.  It's just that simple.

I wouldn't be surprised if the CEO of Sears shares your feelings. As times change, YOU should adapt to how we conduct business. That's exactly how enterprises fail, as changing times dont always align with that sort of rigid persistence. Like it or not, I dont have to be more sophisticated to appreciate the world chess championship any more than I have to be more sophisticated to appreciate Sears. The reality is the world chess championship has to adapt to the changing world around it. Or face the same fate as Sears.

ventudius
Khrissy schreef:
stiggling wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

It was, boring, dull, sterile and unenthusiastic. Sort of like Sears.

lol

But just want to point out, Carlsen - Karjakin was much more boring, with Karjakin actively playing for a draw with white every time. This was the most interesting match in a while, and we got Sicilians instead of Berlins.

Carlsen - Anand had many boring games too, but Anand made more mistakes, so (apparently) people like you think it was exciting. I think this WCC match was much more fun to watch, and produced better games too.

It's easier for a very weak and tunnel visioned player to appreciate -3 dragons and blundered KIAs than it is to appreciate a better game, with more pressure and better / more varied and harder to meet threats.  That is the fault of the viewer and not the game.

 

Nobody is saying that. It's the same reason why I am against faster timer controls for classical chess. Nobody wants blunders to be the decisive factor. Creative chess should be the decisive factor. But it seems that human chess has just about reached it's ceiling, and it's not a pretty sight. From this point on, leave the pinniacle of chess to computers.

lfPatriotGames
PushingForFun wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

It was, boring, dull, sterile and unenthusiastic. Sort of like Sears.

I found the games to be quite intense.

The problem is that Carlsen and Caruana played at such a high level (nearly 2900 PR) that the positional/tactical struggles that both players were wrestling with were nearly invisible to most observers.

The games looked boring because the ideas contained in them went far over most people's heads.

I agree with you on every single point. But that's exactly what boring is. I believe you found the games intense, just as I believe there are still people who love Sears. I just think there isn't enough of either one to sustain their existence. Both have insisted that their "customers" adapt to how they do things, rather than do things that their customers want.

Maybe in the next world chess championship someone will be much, much better than the current champion and that will spark interest again. But if its two players of equal ability playing the same way they played this tournament, I think game 12 of this tournament will be the moment people will point to as the one that caused the decline.

Sky2357
staples13 wrote:

Magnus Carlsen is an absolute joke. The man has absolutely no heart whatsoever. 

Tie score going into the final game of the World Chess Championship and he gets a big advantage and instead of trying to convert it offers a draw. Where’s the competitive drive? Where’s the belief in himself? Can you imagine Fischer or Kasparov offering a draw in that position?

Just disgusting behavior by a reigning world champion. No respect for competition whatsoever. I hope Caruana destroys him in the tiebreak. It would serve him right. 

I have given my thoughts, and  now it’s your turn chess.com. Was this the most disgusting behavior by a reigning champion in world chess championship history?

 

Are you 9 years old? 

All the games were great. I think people need to be studying the moves rather than pretending to be know-it-alls about how the tournament "should have been."

 

Puffin_Rock
staples13 wrote:

I doubt it. Magnus does not believe he can beat Fabiano, otherwise he would’ve played on. If you don’t believe in yourself you have no chance of winning. Fabiano will win the tiebreak. I guarantee it

:-) that didn't age well

 

Sky2357
staples13 wrote:
JustJackinIt wrote:
Let's all remember that chess is a board game, there's so much melodrama. Magnus is going to win it, he was always going to win it, who gives a crap? We still got to watch twelve awesome games, and now we get to watch Magnus shred Fabi in Rapid.

I doubt it. Magnus does not believe he can beat Fabiano, otherwise he would’ve played on. If you don’t believe in yourself you have no chance of winning. Fabiano will win the tiebreak. I guarantee it

 

This post makes me laugh. Magnus must have really gotten into people's head when he drew game 12. He outwitted even his critics.

Bereket000

Bereket000 wrote:

if u think caruana will win keep on dreaming ..he barely survived the classical he has no chance in rapid and blitz

looks like i was right .....in rapid (or blitz) you can't rely on endless computer preparation and a big team of helpers and instead need to crunch things with your own brain and intuition #king magnus the best in classical ,rapid and blitz #well deserved champion

Ghostliner
Daniel1115 wrote:

 

Ghostliner wrote:

 

torrubirubi wrote:
staples13 wrote:

Magnus Carlsen is an absolute joke. The man has absolutely no heart whatsoever. 

Tie score going into the final game of the World Chess Championship and he gets a big advantage and instead of trying to convert it offers a draw. Where’s the competitive drive? Where’s the belief in himself? Can you imagine Fischer or Kasparov offering a draw in that position?

Just disgusting behavior by a reigning world champion. No respect for competition whatsoever. I hope Caruana destroys him in the tiebreak. It would serve him right. 

I have given my thoughts, and  now it’s your turn chess.com. Was this the most disgusting behavior by a reigning champion in world chess championship history?

What he did just reflects is strength. A player has during a game to decide if he should take risks or not in several positions. If he is playing for a win, he will take more risks, if he can win a tournament with a draw he will take less risks. This applies not only to the moves played in a game, but to choice of openings.

This kind of considerations are typical for strong players and difficult to understand for people who are losing material in most games. He is playing to win, and this means in this situation to draw the last game before going to the tie-break where he thinks he has better chances. Simple and logic. And strong.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you on this. Carlsen is quite happy to bore us all shitless by grinding on-and-on-and-on in positions that are dead equal, but when he achieves a position in Game 12 of a World Championship match which holds genuine promise of delivering a knockout blow he just shrugs his shoulders and walks away. And because what? Because it's not his cup of tea and he can't be bothered?

I sent this tweet to Carlsen yesterday:

"I don't care what happens in the tie break. Is that harsh? Maybe, but I'm just being honest with you, I really couldn't care less."

I haven't had a reply yet... not that I'm holding my breath or anything.

 

Carlsen is not required to entertain or give the audience what they wants

 

You don't understand, this is not about *me*, it's about respect. We all know Carlsen is strong on theory but he's not a kid any more, does he not feel the weight of history on his shoulders? Can you imagine Tal wimping out with a draw offer in Game 12 of a World Championship match when he has a position like that? How about Lasker? Or Kasparov?

Yermolinsky is right, it's not the format it's the people - Carlsen and Caruana were both child prodigies, they have both lived rather sheltered lives, and it shows. That's not to say you have to live through war and revolution to be a complete player, but one gets the sense that neither of these guys really understands what it is they're playing for. They simply don't view the World Championship as life-defining, it's just another elite event in a calendar that's crammed with them.

This is not a criticism so much as an observation.

Ghostliner
Khrissy wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Khrissy wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
stiggling wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Who wants to watch two humans play like computers when two actual computers can do it better.

If you were paying attention, you'll notice how they didn't play like computers... but ok, more whining from the peanut gallery.

What was the worldwide viewership? From the results I saw, they played 12 games in a row that ended in draws. which means they both played very well and very equally. And very boring. That's what computers do.

ACTUALLY,  humans draw games too, and the entire game didn't exactly have to be equal.  In fact,  some of the classical games were *Very* winning for one side until they were out of their prep and screwed it up.  Watch again when you learn a little about chess, you're not sharp enough to appreciate it yet

We've had over a hundred years to appreciate it. Just like Sears, its time has come and gone. You dont have to be a major stockholder to appreciate WHY Sears is going bankrupt. And you dont have to be a grandmaster to appreciate WHY the world chess championship is losing appeal. 

I'm just saying times change. There are no more fax machines. There are no more rotary phones. Major chess championships used to be interesting. This one clearly was not interesting, as 12 boring draws in a row attests to. People who attended the event say the same thing. It was, boring, dull, sterile and unenthusiastic. Sort of like Sears.

All of the same appealing things are still here.  The difference is as chess become more sophisticated YOU need to become more sophisticated to appreciate it.  This was the most exciting and most fighting WCC we've ever had by a mile.  You aren't strong enough to recognize a boring, dull or sterile professional game but that isn't surprising because you also aren't strong enough to perceive the threats in your own games.  It's just that simple.

Come again?

blueemu
PushingForFun wrote:

I found the games to be quite intense.

The problem is that Carlsen and Caruana played at such a high level (nearly 2900 PR) that the positional/tactical struggles that both players were wrestling with were nearly invisible to most observers.

The games looked boring because the ideas contained in them went far over most people's heads.

This.

I thought the games in this match were tense and well played. When both sides play well, a draw is the most logical result. As it turned out, both players did make errors in several games... but between relatively even opponents, it usually takes more than one mistake to lose.

Ghostliner
Khrissy wrote:
blueemu wrote:
PushingForFun wrote:

I found the games to be quite intense.

The problem is that Carlsen and Caruana played at such a high level (nearly 2900 PR) that the positional/tactical struggles that both players were wrestling with were nearly invisible to most observers.

The games looked boring because the ideas contained in them went far over most people's heads.

This.

I thought the games in this match were tense and well played. When both sides play well, a draw is the most logical result. As it turned out, both players did make errors in several games... but between relatively even opponents, it usually takes more than one mistake to lose.

Some of us seem to think that morphy's opera game was a better example of "fighting" chess lololol

What are you, a mind-reader? I'm pretty sure nobody has said that.

Debistro

Before the match everyone thought that the match would produce more unbalanced games with one side risking more to attack. And people thought Fabiano would be less risk averse than Karjakin.

In the end we get Magnus Drawlsen vs Fabiano Drawruana. Yes the match had its moments but only several games were like that.

Fabiano shall henceforth be known as the new Minister of Defence.

grin.png

Dhanushramsadesh

staples13 wrote:

themaskedbishop wrote:
I’m not sure it was disgusting,...that’s more Bobby Fischer’s territory....but it was certainly the most pathetic performance I can think of at this level.

Great post. 

This is a world championship match. We expect the participants to honor the tradition of competition and fair play,  and for Carlsen to make a mockery of it today like he did is pathetic and an absolute travesty. 

themaskedbishop wrote: I’m not sure it was disgusting,...that’s more Bobby Fischer’s territory....but it was certainly the most pathetic performance I can think of at this level.Great post. This is a world championship match. We expect the participants to honor the tradition of competition and fair play,  and for Carlsen to make a mockery of it today like he did is pathetic and an absolute travesty. 

ed1975
Debistro wrote:

And people thought Fabiano would be less risk averse than Karjakin.

Well Karjakin did better against Magnus than Caruana did...

eirikbjorlo

mr. Caruana showed he had a snowballs chance in hell when he no longer could memorize computersmoves. computers are the biggest threat to the game

Aayodeji

I don't seem to understand the basis of this heavy criticism on carlsen s personality. To start with ,he didn't make the rules,the rules have been made way back before the games and few people criticised it. The players have a right to their decisions during the course of the match,if you say carlsen is culpable,then caruana is also culpable for accepting the draw offer. the world chess championship is the world chess championship not world classical chess championship and i think the organizers have a right to include faster time controls if they deem it fit. anyone who wants to be a world champion should be exceptional in slow and fast time controls. caruana fought valiantly in the 12 games,but eventually his weakness in the rapids found him out. carlsen is not to blame.

SiriamIto

Ah! Computers .....They are boring!

Bereket000

PardonMyBlunders wrote:

The world championship was clearly drawn , the world should understand that a tie means we have no champion, Carlsen became rapid champion though. This has been the most disgusting championship ever witnessed. Vaotp...(Vomiting all over the place)

as your name suggests you blunder a lot .. i will pardon your blunder... you r wrong just move on no need to cry

Sean_Cooper
Carlsen did what was required to retain the championship, and in the end it was the right decision. To risk losing the highest title in the game just to please people is an insane standard to live up to.

Caruana didn’t have to accept the draw offer. He was also content to go into rapid tie breaks.

Finally, Caruana has conducted himself extremely well, and has been gracious in defeat. His fans should follow his lead.
Chessflyfisher
Sean_Cooper wrote:
Carlsen did what was required to retain the championship, and in the end it was the right decision. To risk losing the highest title in the game just to please people is an insane standard to live up to.

Caruana didn’t have to accept the draw offer. He was also content to go into rapid tie breaks.

Finally, Caruana has conducted himself extremely well, and has been gracious in defeat. His fans should follow his lead.

Well said! I could not improve on your post.