Monroi Chess Recorder

I bought a pack of pens from the dollar store and use the score sheets at tournaments.  I then put the rest in a cd and let it grow. 

I would really like such a device. Would be handy. But my max for a simple thing like that is €50,- and not a dime more. I'll gladly pay €50,- for a pencil and paper since I do not write very well. But 350? Then I'll do my best to write better.

Whats gonna be next?  A mechanical arm to move the pieces for us?

Internet chess already is the next step. After that we will be moving with our thoughts.

Then singularity.

In a tournament game last week, my opponent was complaining in the skittles room that I was analyzing with my Monroi.  While I did occasionally "replay" his last move on the device, at no point did I violate USCF Rule 15A to analyze potential future moves for either side. I do tend to stare at the Monroi screen, since I am more comfortable looking at the 2D board and pieces -- I realize this can be off-putting for some of my opponents!

I do agree that you should not be allowed to use the device to more easily detect draw-by-threefold reps, but it seems that some additional clarification of acceptable Monroi use in tournaments is called for. And since Monroi doesn't have a forum, I'm posting here!

I think that your opponent had a legitimate complaint here. Basically, "the MonRoi PCM should only be used as a scoresheet" -- I am quoting here a renowned FIDE arbiter, Geurt Gijssen, from his MonRoi and Other Matters column a few years ago.

The ability to backtrack the moves on the recorder is designed to facilitate correcting illegal/incorrectly recorded moves, and should be used only for that purpose.

Suppose that after you made a move, your opponent would move your piece back to its previous position, thought for a while, and then restored the position to the state after your move. I am sure you would find this highly objectionable, and yet this is equivalent to what you described.

Furthermore, using the Monroi as the primary visual input is too much like using an auxiliary chessboard. Suppose that your opponent would have a small side board on which the moves made on the main board would be repeated, and your opponent justified this as being more comfortable looking at that auxiliary board.

The bottom line is that you're availing yourself of means that are not available to your Monroi-less opponent. Gijssen even argued against the ability to flip the position on the screen, even though this is very much like the (completely legal) practice of getting up and viewing the board from behind your opponent.

As for detecting the 3-fold repetition, the claim should be made without backtracking the game on the screen. Once the claim is made, the arbiter can use the device to verify that claim.

I think that for some people, myself included, the ability to look down on a two demensional board is a striking advantage.  I can see things from that perspective that simply elude me looking at chess pieces from an angle. Indeed, I know a number of over the board players who bring thick seat pads to raise their seated hight to obtain a better angle of view over the board.  It would be nice if the price came down or they gave discounts to clubs for volume. I will buy one just as soon as I figure out a way to slip it by my wife.

For those (or their kids) who CURRENTLY own a MonRoi.

May I ask a few questions:

1.  How is your expereince with it?

2.  Can someone view your game live during the tournament? How?

3.  If you can reconsider the purchase, will you still buy it (for yourself or your kids)?

4.  Does the device actually assist somewhat, improving your (or your kids)'s chess skill in any way during the games?  such as: easier notations, faster notation and like the above post mentioned, see the game in a 2D board as an advantage?

Thanks so much.

Nene

I don't have a Monroi. I do use ynotate for Android and that is excellent though not FIDE of USCF certifies even though it has a disabling tournament mode.  That said, I definitly find the 2D view an advantage. 

I looked at getting one. Instead I picked up a package of these:

And one of these:

And now I'm trying to figure out what to do with the other $300 dollars :)

Yeah but what kind of tech support do you get with those foldie things and the pointy thing?

I have a MonRoi and have mixed feelings about it.  Mainly I used it for my kids, but also I've used it in the few tournaments I've played in as well.  My kids aren't serious enough about chess to sit there and write down their moves on paper.  I wish they would.  My reviewing their games with them made a huge impact on their learning, since we could identify and rectify their weaknesses.  So, I was the one writing down their games.  First I used paper and pencil, but found it hard to keep up with them, viewing from a distance, figuring out the algebraic notes.  Inevitably I'd get lost.  When the kids did write their own games on paper, they (and I as well in my own games), would inevitably mess up and have to piece things together afterward.  The MonRoi made it much easier to get it right, notating visually instead of algebraically.  My kids also actually enjoy using it, so I don't have to sit there and watch their games as they make their mistakes.  Much less painful to just review afterward.  Outside of official tournaments, getting the kids to notate their club games is again fantastic for learning, and they wouldn't do it if they had to do it on paper.  Many kids just aren't that motivated about the game.  For them, making it easy gets it done.  Before buying the MonRoi, I tried just doing it on an ipod touch.  But it was easy to accidentally delete the whole game (I was just using a regular chess app, and not one specifically for notation).  Also, the MonRoi allows you to set it to ignore the rules.  That's very beneficial, since if you accidentally skip a move, you can simply make an illegal one in your notation and get back on track, then backsolve later.  Big pluses include low energy consumption (long battery time) and no accidental game deletion.  If you turn it off, the game is still there.

Now, on the downside, it's obviously expensive.  I also own a Dell Axim with eNotate software.  This combination ends up much cheaper and is also official for tournaments.  The biggest downside to the Dell is a much shorter battery life.  So it's a bit scary wondering if it's going to run out of juice in the middle of a game.

Another downside to the MonRoi is tech support and documentation.  They seem to be lacking there.  There are some quirks to the device and things that aren't so intuitive.  After not using mine for a year, I'm currently having trouble with transferring to or reading data from an SD card.  Maybe a hardware issue or just that I've forgotten how to do it right.  Hopefully will get a response from MonRoi, but they've not answered at least one question I had in the past, so we'll see.

Would I recommend it to a friend?  If you're serious about chess and pencil and paper don't work well for you, and you have the money, it's a pretty good device for the job.  If you're just getting kids in the club to notate their games when they're not willing to use paper, there are probably Android or iphone apps that can do it.

Can someone watch a game live?  Only if the tournament has purchased and is using the other hardware necessary for picking up and broadcasting the games.

Does it help during the game?  It doesn't for me or my kids and I don't think that it should.  But it's great after, since there are fewer notation mistakes.

I've been using yNotate on my Droid with good results. It is not tournament certified, but it may be soon if Chandru, the programmer, can have tournament mode block all access to other programs while in that mode. Monroi is absurdly expensive when you consider what is available in computers these days. I have inquired of them about pricing for schools on two occasions and never received a reply. You can use a non-certified program like yNotate if your opponent agrees.  I've had players agree with no problems. 

Monroi haven't increased their price for some years, and so with inflation considered, is getting cheaper. The company is content to be a niche player in the market. The main impediment for our market (Australia) is the prohibitive transportation costs.

As an update to my earlier post, MonRoi did respond to my issue of data not transferring.  Even though I was well past my warranty period, they did what they could to fix it.  They weren't successful - evidently I had pushed too hard on the card and broken the internal contacts.  They were nice enough to offer me a new one at cost and I took them up on the offer.  So, while I was disappointed with the breakage, I think their customer service is much better now than it had been in the past.  My daughter used it in a tournament recently and we shared the pgn files with the parents/coach of the other players, who really appreciated getting a chance to review their games.  Would be great if the kids all simply notated in any manner, but they don't.  After seeing these games though, more kids are interested in doing so for next time.  Hopefully they'll follow through.

The value of any purchase is unique to the person making the purchase. Everyone weighs the value differently. Everyone values money differently.

To some people the time saved entering the games is more valuable than the money spent, and to some people it isn't.

I find that for me the benefits which are time saved, and scorekeeping accuracy justify the price. Others will value those things differently.

That would not be legal in a USCF tournament game. Monroi's are built specifically with added security preventing them from running an engine. Part of the cost likely is due to the difficulty and risk of them obtaining USCF licensing.

Really Kevin?  I missed that.  Who was using it, do you know? 

I would have objected, if that was my opponent.  They aren't supposed to use iPads to to record games.

It's against USCF rules. Look up digital recording or something like that.

The problem with the enotate and/or an iphone app if one were to be approved is that it is hard for people to verify that the user is using the approved app and not something with an engine. At least with a Monroi you  can be reasonably sure that nothing illegal is going on. I played against a low rated player a while back who was using an enotate and wasn't completely sure he was legal until he played a few really bad moves and it became completely obvious he wasn't using any engine.