Lets talk of something else.
Nigel Short: Women's brains not chess brains
I once went to a chess club, I was the only woman, I felt so out of it. Never had a game and left early.
Nigel is still correct as far as *aggregate* differences go. That doesn't mean that individual men or women can't be good at things that the other sex generally excel at.
Where I do part ways with him is that his conclusion that women can't play chess at the same level of men does not follow from these differences. There are two main problems I see with this conclusion. Firstly, far fewer women play chess than men, and I think that is the single biggest factor in the performance difference. This difference in participation isn't necessarily due to sexism, as women may be less *interested* in chess because of some aggregate personality differences, but it does NOT mean that they are inherently less skilled at chess. The second problem is the one that Polgar pointed out: women and men may use different strategies/approaches to chess, but that doesn't mean that one approach will necessarily be more successful than the other.
All this being said, I don't think it's implausible that men are better at chess, but if they are, it's to a much smaller degree than the current ratings discrepancy suggests (e.g. 50 Elo points on average). Here's my reasoning:
1) Women have less physical stamina, which comes into play in the longest games (6-7 hours), as attested to by Hou Yifan.
2) The neurological differences Nigel pointed out *may* translate to a difference in chess playing ability. I think he's jumping the gun, but it shouldn't be sacreligious to say so if his claim ends up being *empirically* demonstrated down the road.
I wouldn't give Nigel Short credit for saying that there are brain differences between the sexes. But I will say he's a sexist. Everything you said is interesting:)
Yogur, what do you understand as "evolution theory"?
I'm on line with Steven Pinker and Richard Dawkins and such people, David Buss for instance. There's a whole field called evolutionary psychology studying psychology from an evolutionary perspective, in which gender differences is only a small and not very interesting corner. There's not much trouble in figuring out that what the main lines would be since it's pretty obvious that women are biologically equipped for the nurturing role and men for the "kill shit, hunt and protect the flock" -role. Like most mammals. I don't even thing there are any mammals with big strong femals and small males?
The "desire" comes with the role, since for instance women would have no biological use of being able to lactate if they didnt want to give their babies milk and men would have no use of their stronger muscles if they didnt give a damn that someone murdered their wife and children. (A tiger wouldnt care for instance, male tigers excpect female tigers to fend for themselves.) And squirrels wouldnt have any use of their treeclimbing abilities if they didnt like trees. To me it's just weird that people always want to separate desires and biology.
I got bored with the stuff though, so I wouldnt know if anything important changed the last 10 years or so though.
For any individual person gender differences doesnt matter, even though your "group" is statistically underequipped you just might be special and succeed anyway.
I don't understand you there? I'm saying that females can play chess so well that they can win the world championship. That there is nothing about our brains inherently female which make us unequipped to compete with men at the very highest levels. Therefore, in my view, I believe that only social issues, not biological issues, account for the smaller percentages of women competing for the championship presently:)
So you think the brain is a special part of the body which is unaffected by DNA and sort of designs itself or what? Like the proteins in the brain arent made by DNA and are special magical proteins that arent affected by hormones and such?
It's difficult for me to see where you're going? You've kind of gotten to the point where differences in individuals, instead of sexes, are what matters. And I agree with you there:)
Women are definitely smarter than men, that is why they live longer.
Amd there are clams that can be 3-400 years old. Smart little suckers!
Two words JUDIT POLGAR.
One word: statistics.
9 words: Statistics don't tell us why fewer women play chess.
Two words JUDIT POLGAR.
One word: statistics.
9 words: Statistics don't tell us why fewer women play chess.
True, but:
I searched FIDE and they have 442 842 rated males and 62 165 rated females. With that ratio there should be 6 women rated 2700+, since there are 43 such men. However, there are none.
There are more than 109 male players rated 2650+. Statistically, there should be 15 women with that rating. There are only 2.
Two words JUDIT POLGAR.
One word: statistics.
9 words: Statistics don't tell us why fewer women play chess.
True, but:
I searched FIDE and they have 442 842 rated males and 62 165 rated females. With that ratio there should be 6 women rated 2700+, since there are 43 such men. However, there are none.
There are more than 109 male players rated 2650+. Statistically, there should be 15 women with that rating. There are only 2.
Yes, that is interesting. I wonder if it has anything to do with the types of competition they play. Do all those women in the FIDE database play in the same competitions as the men or do they play mainly in women's competitions? Do those competitions confer less points?
The reasons why there are really noticeable differences in fields such as piloting and chess is not about neurological differences in the sexes. It is a nurture, not a nature problem. It's the exceptions which inform us of this. It's that 5% or Judit which tells us that this is a social problem.
It may be *partly* social, but ignoring neurological differences is just silly. The the proportion isn't wouldn't change from 95%-5% to 50%-50% even if society went out of its way to encourage females to become pilots.
I disagree. I believe in the case of piloting airplanes and playing chess it is a matter of the individual and social circumstances, and not based on some difference in the female brain:)
Yogur, what do you understand as "evolution theory"?
I'm on line with Steven Pinker and Richard Dawkins and such people, David Buss for instance. There's a whole field called evolutionary psychology studying psychology from an evolutionary perspective, in which gender differences is only a small and not very interesting corner. There's not much trouble in figuring out that what the main lines would be since it's pretty obvious that women are biologically equipped for the nurturing role and men for the "kill shit, hunt and protect the flock" -role. Like most mammals. I don't even thing there are any mammals with big strong femals and small males?
The "desire" comes with the role, since for instance women would have no biological use of being able to lactate if they didnt want to give their babies milk and men would have no use of their stronger muscles if they didnt give a damn that someone murdered their wife and children. (A tiger wouldnt care for instance, male tigers excpect female tigers to fend for themselves.) And squirrels wouldnt have any use of their treeclimbing abilities if they didnt like trees. To me it's just weird that people always want to separate desires and biology.
I got bored with the stuff though, so I wouldnt know if anything important changed the last 10 years or so though.
For any individual person gender differences doesnt matter, even though your "group" is statistically underequipped you just might be special and succeed anyway.
Wrong. Female animals are usually larger, sometimes much larger, than males, for obvious reasons. Even in mammals is common (take whales for example). Larger males came usually as a result of competition between them for the access to females in a system of harems (e.g. lions, great apes, bulls). This was happening in our line in past times (male australopithecus were almost double size than their female partners), and still remains a vestige in our species.
Still, I don't understand how is all this related to a board game.
(Yogurt #121)....male tigers excpect female tigers to fend for themselves.
'Cuz they're scaredeecats ! Lions and Tigers and Bears (Oh My !!) are suppose to be the Kings of the Forest and Dorothy knew exactly what the Cowardly Lion needed.
(Yogurt #121)....male tigers excpect female tigers to fend for themselves.
'Cuz they're scaredeecats ! Lions and Tigers and Bears (Oh My !!) are suppose to be the Kings of the Forest and Dorothy knew exactly what the Cowardly Lion needed.
Female tiger dont need no protection RAWR lol.
Dont know much about lions but I think the male doesnt do much except strut around and look kingly.
That doesn't change the biological issue. I've seen statistics that claim that 96% of the difference between men and women can be accounted for by cultural and statistical realities (including the fact that far more men play competitive chess than women).* That still leaves 4% to biological factors, which is important when discussing the very top of the pyramid, to biological factors.
The work of Bilalic et al. to which you're referring was discredited for using faulty statistical methods. Actually, the gender gap (of about 300 points at top level) is only about 67% explained by the difference in participation rates. The remaining 33% (100 points) remains unexplained. I came to a similar conclusion when I did a statistical analysis of FIDE player ratings. Cultural pressure is one explanation, but it's something that's impossible to prove quantitatively.
Two words JUDIT POLGAR.
One word: statistics.
9 words: Statistics don't tell us why fewer women play chess.
True, but:
I searched FIDE and they have 442 842 rated males and 62 165 rated females. With that ratio there should be 6 women rated 2700+, since there are 43 such men. However, there are none.
There are more than 109 male players rated 2650+. Statistically, there should be 15 women with that rating. There are only 2.
I checked the hospitals. 100% of mothers are women.
I checked the prisons. Female6.7% ; Male93.3%.
Must be something to do with brain size.
That means you have more chances of being killed by a Nigel Short than a Polgar... :)
Does it even matter? Suppose women's brain are different. So what? Why do women have to prove anything? Why does anyone have to prove anything to anyone?
Usually, the question of gender performance difference is centered around why there are separate tournaments and titles for women. Some argue that keeping up this practice is sexist, assuming that there are no biological differences at play. If, however, there are biological differences that can be proven to affect the respective levels at which the average man or woman plays chess, there is a more acceptable incentive to keep the separation going.
Personally, I prefer the middle ground of keeping up separate tournaments and titles only as long as there is a noticeable performance gap between the sexes. We don't know why this gap exists and persists, but we do know that without the possibility of reaching the very top of a unisex ratings pool, women won't have equal chances of getting recognition for playing chess. An absence of visible role models may in turn diminish the likelihood of new female players entering the field.
Two wo
rds JUDIT POLGAR.