Penalty/remedy for 4.1

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jsaepuru

Article 4.1 requires that each move must be made with one hand only.

Article 4.8 refers to opponent forfeiting the right to claim against 4.1 inter alia. Therefore some right to claim exist.

However, Article 5 repeatedly requires moves to comply with Articles 3 and 4.2 to 4.7 - comspicuously omitting 4.1.

So what is the penalty or remedy for 4.1 violations, if successfully claimed?

Martin_Stahl

My guess is that 4.1 is mainly related to castling, to prevent the moving of both pieces at the same time.

 

Assuming someone had the habit of using both hands for normal moves, unless a handicap might require it, then my guess is that the arbiter would start with a warning and could work their way up the chain.

I imagine that rule is rarely invoked and due to the omission of 4.1 from section 5, it doesn't really matter as checkmate is on the board so the game ends.

jsaepuru

Capture and promotion also involve handling of 2 or 3 pieces.

Martin_Stahl

4.1 only refers to moving a piece. Doesn't say anything about captures or promotion

jsaepuru

Yes, but hand is again referred to in 6.2b:

"A player must press his clock with the same hand with which he made his move."

If capture or promotion is made by two hands, which of them is allowed to be used to press clock?

Martin_Stahl

The hand that moved their own piece.

jsaepuru
Martin_Stahl wrote:

The hand that moved their own piece.

Promotion still involves handling two own pieces.

Martin_Stahl

In promotion, one hand would be used to move the initial piece. I guess, if it was a promotion with capture then a player could remove the captured piece with one hand and move the pawn to the promotion square (or the promoted piece) or place the promotion piece first. In that case, the first hand used would likely be the "same hand" in my opinion.


However, I seriously doubt the issue comes up very often, except in cases of time trouble or Rapid and Blitz chess.  There, it probably happens and should be more strictly enforced as it can confer a time advantage.

jsaepuru
Martin_Stahl wrote:

I guess, if it was a promotion with capture then a player could remove the captured piece with one hand and move the pawn to the promotion square (or the promoted piece) or place the promotion piece first. In that case, the first hand used would likely be the "same hand" in my opinion.


However, I seriously doubt the issue comes up very often, except in cases of time trouble or Rapid and Blitz chess.  There, it probably happens and should be more strictly enforced as it can confer a time advantage.

Yes. I read it in a way that 4.1 and 6.2b belong together - forbid players to save time by using two hands to make and complete a move.

Under chess rules "making" a move that ends the game completes itself and then the player is not required to press clock.

But moves are "made" when

4.7

"...The move is considered to have been made in the case of:

a a capture, when the captured piece has been removed from the chessboard and the player, having placed his own piece on its new square, has released this capturing piece from his hand.

...

c promotion, when the player's hand has released the new piece on the square of promotion and the pawn has been removed from the board."

So: if a flag fall catches a player in contact (not having released) a moving piece which is giving checkmate then the checkmate is retracted as a move not "made", right? Ditto if flag fall catches a player with promoted piece on promotion square, but pawn still on board.

What should be done if pawn is off the board and the promoted piece released, but only because the player used two hands to deliver checkmate?

Martin_Stahl
jsaepuru wrote:

Yes. I read it in a way that 4.1 and 6.2b belong together - forbid players to save time by using two hands to make and complete a move.

Under chess rules "making" a move that ends the game completes itself and then the player is not required to press clock.

But moves are "made" when

4.7

"...The move is considered to have been made in the case of:

a a capture, when the captured piece has been removed from the chessboard and the player, having placed his own piece on its new square, has released this capturing piece from his hand.

...

c promotion, when the player's hand has released the new piece on the square of promotion and the pawn has been removed from the board."

So: if a flag fall catches a player in contact (not having released) a moving piece which is giving checkmate then the checkmate is retracted as a move not "made", right? Ditto if flag fall catches a player with promoted piece on promotion square, but pawn still on board.

What should be done if pawn is off the board and the promoted piece released, but only because the player used two hands to deliver checkmate?

 

That would be a tough one. For FIDE, I don't really know but I would hope an arbiter was watching the game, which should be done when there is time trouble and would be able to easily tell. If the move truly wasn't completed and the flag fell, I think it would be a loss on time, assuming the opponent had mating material.

 

In reality, I wonder how often that situation happens, with or without two hands being used.

JohnQSac

4.1

Each move must be made with one hand only.

Promotion, castling and capturing may involve several operations, but it is still 1 move. 

6.7 a During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent’s clock. A player must always be allowed to stop hisclock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game. (See the Articles 5.1.a, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c and 9.6)

When a players uses a second hand to put a fresh queen on the promotion square. If he allready pressed his clock, before using his second hand, his move is incomplete and actually illegal. If he didnt press his clock he is using 2 hands for his move, since the move has not ended yet.

Basicly you cannot use 2 hands PERIOD.

All_Exceed

Once in a district level match, my opponent captured a piece with two hands. I informed the arbiter about it and he was declared out. No warnings were issued.

Martin_Stahl
JohnQSac wrote:

4.1

Each move must be made with one hand only.

Promotion, castling and capturing may involve several operations, but it is still 1 move. 

6.7 a During the game each player, having made his move on the chessboard, shall stop his own clock and start his opponent’s clock. A player must always be allowed to stop hisclock. His move is not considered to have been completed until he has done so, unless the move that was made ends the game. (See the Articles 5.1.a, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c and 9.6)

When a players uses a second hand to put a fresh queen on the promotion square. If he allready pressed his clock, before using his second hand, his move is incomplete and actually illegal. If he didnt press his clock he is using 2 hands for his move, since the move has not ended yet.

Basicly you cannot use 2 hands PERIOD.

 

Illegal moves are defined in section 3. Moving with 2 hands is not allowed but a first occurrence should be nothing more than a warning.

 

Your example of promotion, does not meet the bar of illegal move as it does not meet any of the section 3 violations. If the two hand rule been present in section 3, the the move could be considered illegal.

Dale

The penalty for violating 4.1 is up to the arbiter.

See article 12.9

One arbiter might think losing 2 seconds on your clock is a nice penalty and the next arbiter might think only a warning would be nice.

Martin_Stahl

Yeah, 12.9 was what I was looking at . In my opinion, a warning would suffice on a first occurrence. 

Martin_Stahl

Part of two hand use is using one to move and one to hit the clock. Happens most often in blitz and other time scrambles, but I have seen it.