Quirky Bug in the middle of a game

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BirdsDaWord

I was playing a game on www.playchess.com server at 10+5 as a guest earlier.  I wouldn't normally talk about another site on here, but I thought this was funny - has anyone else ever had this happen to them, or know how it happened?

My opponent was a fairly strong opponent.  Our first game, he won, and right now I cannot remember if I won the next one or not, as it is very late.  But either way, I know we were on the third game...a Tromp Attack.  He converted into a Stonewall pawn formation, and it was a bear trying to break through.  Finally, I prepared ...f6, ...e5 and cracked one part of the wall, then ...g5 and cracked the rest of the wall.  Still, he hung tough, and continued to make threats himself.  He was up two pawns, but I had two bishops...and a lot of pressure.  Finally, I was able to get a queen and a rook on the open g-file and pin his king to a loose rook.  I took the rook, and then popped up a message -

"Your opponent has offered to take back your move"

I clicked no, but it would not go away...so I tried it again...and again...and again.  Finally, the time ran out...but it did not say I won (even though I know I did).  So I decided to click yes once the time ran out, just to see what would happen.  It took back my move, and his move, and then asked me again.  Still no win shown.  So I click on it again, and the same thing happened - another pair of moves back, and again the box is up.  This keeps happening.  So I decide to click off the game.  But it won't let me!  Almost like my computer is froze.  So I Ctrl+Alt+Del and get out of the program the old fashioned way.  I was kind of peeved, knowing that my opponent was sore about the loss and had done something funny on purpose. 

So I clicked back on the server after I logged off, and as soon as I logged on, it put me right back in the game!  But the problem was, it put me back to the same spot where it took back many moves - probably at least five sets of moves, which gave my opponent some leeway to escape, or maybe at least prepare for my g-file invasion.  So what did I do?  I resigned the game right there on the spot, for two good reasons.  #1 - I don't really want to play with a cheater who manipulates the program when he/she is not winning, and #2 - I was already peeved with the current game.  I knew that I had won.  I had a successful invasion, was finally up in material, with checkmate threats, only to see this "bug" that he sent to me in the game.

So my question is - has anyone else ever experienced anything like this?   It maybe could even happen on this server - I don't know why it happened exactly - I thought for sure that something like that wouldn't happen on the chess server, but it shows what I know about technology!  :-)

grey_pieces

Sounds like your opponent had a way of leveraging a bug to his advantage, or else he might have been just been hammering the "offer-takeback" button in the hope you would resign. The fact that you went back several moves gives a lot of weight to this idea.

You did the right thing, you were only guesting after all and he knows you had the better of him.

A related story: FICS does not have time-lag detection like chess.com, or at least the support does not work in linux. You are expected to download software called "Timeseal" if you are a linux user, otherwise both players can be looking at very different clocks... A little while ago I stumbled across a guys site hosting some software called "Timecheat" or something which claims to exploit this issue to make it seem like you are making moves much faster than you are and give you an unfair advantage against your opponent, presumably making it appear as though your moves are coming from a slow connection. Shocking, no?

BirdsDaWord

Well, I would stick to chess.com only for live chess also, but I absolutely hate getting kicked off of a game in the middle of it.  I would rather use an alternate site.  But I truly love chess.com - I think it is the best chess site.  I like the people here, and the variety of topics, and the colorful games, the groups, etc.  There are a lot of plusses to this site.  Otherwise, I would play all my live chess on here. 

BTW, since we are on the topic - how has live chess been doing on here recently?  I guess I'll have to play a game to see if I get kicked off...I haven't played one on here in a while.  I would like to try it again, because it would store my games and everything...

grey_pieces
RainbowRising wrote:

The solution is clear! NEVER use other sites - only use chess.com!


Haha...

But I play on FICS because it integrates with my desktop clients like PyChess and Knights. I hope that the guys maintaining one of these frontends will one day provide Chess.com support.

I just checked the guys site and it's still there. I could give the actual name of the timeseal hack, but I don't want to send a bunch of cheaters of to google and then FICS... he's only distributing it as a proof of concept that Timeseal is a flawed solution; it seems he didn't have to modify the code very much at all.

The thing is, let's just say his name wasn't as good as mine - I would have called it TimeSteal! ;)

BirdsDaWord

Well, he could have very well had a TimeSteal also - I don't know...when I logged back on, he had 4 or 5 minutes, but the first time he ran out of time - it was so strange.  I wish people would just lose or win honestly...really, it is just a game.  People get so wound up over the game of chess (I used to be one of them) until I learned the joy of playing it as a game.  Sure, I study, but if I lose, I don't do crazy things like bug people's games!  :-)

Anyway...thanks for what you guys have said.  I just downloaded Firefox (can't wait for the no-bug live chess on this site - I probably won't touch playchess again for just a casual game) and am ready to try another game.  Firefox is much faster than Internet Explorer!

BirdsDaWord

Okay, I tried two games with Firefox...no disappointing middle-of-game bugs!  :-)  I guess I'll come back to chess.com for live games.  It sure makes it easier to reference ideas I have tried, rather than having to have pen and paper on hand for playchess, or my memory!  :-)

Golbat
grey_pieces wrote:

A related story: FICS does not have time-lag detection like chess.com, or at least the support does not work in linux. You are expected to download software called "Timeseal" if you are a linux user, otherwise both players can be looking at very different clocks... A little while ago I stumbled across a guys site hosting some software called "Timecheat" or something which claims to exploit this issue to make it seem like you are making moves much faster than you are and give you an unfair advantage against your opponent, presumably making it appear as though your moves are coming from a slow connection. Shocking, no?


 

Well, FICS is a client-based server. You are expected to use a client to access FICS, and timeseal is included in most modern clients. "Lag-cheating" as you have mentioned is highly frowned upon and considered to be as bad as engine abuse (but somewhat easier to detect).

Chess.com doesn't have this issue since the timeseal program is directly incorporated into their browser interface, but this may be related to the incredible latency, common glitches, and frequent disconnects in Live Chess. I'd be impressed to see these problems fixed in Live Chess 2.0.

grey_pieces
BirdBrain wrote:

Well, he could have very well had a TimeSteal also - I don't know...when I logged back on, he had 4 or 5 minutes, but the first time he ran out of time....


I'm pretty sure he just hammered the button. When you were clicking NO, you probably actually had multiple dialogs overlayed on one another, making it appear as if it was frozen. Many applications won't allow you to quit when they are prompting you for a dialog answer. The implementation was clearly flawed, because these defaulted to YES when you exited abnormally; the increase in time you saw will be because it was reset to whatever the clocks were at on the move you returned to.

The key thing is, you can bet your bottom dollar he knew it would happen.

BirdsDaWord

Sure he did!  He was a pretty tough opponent - I will give him that.  But the last match, when he saw that he was clearly lost - he did that weird thing.  I am not upset now - I was a bit peeved last night, but I had the satisfaction of knowing that I truly won, despite his antics...so it doesn't matter to me about that...but the fact that that bug popped up is quite strange.  I am sure you understand what he did better than I.  I don't get on the computer to find tricks to play on others!  :-)  I would rather play chess with others!  :-)

I don't use linux either, so I don't know if that changes anything you spoke about earlier.

BirdsDaWord
RainbowRising wrote:

Well Birdbrain, I will say one thing...

...

But to keep you in suspence, you will have to wait until my next post :P


Oh man, I just can't wait!  I'll be sitting on my hands all day to keep them from rocking back in forth in anxious anticipation!  OH!!!  :-)

grey_pieces

I wouldn't imagine playing on the site in linux would make much difference, the problems sound related to a browser application. I realise now that Timeseal doesn't come with linux frontends because of licensing issues, so you have to download seperately. In windows it comes embedded in a FICS client already. This isn't really relevant to playing through a browser anyway, because as rainbow says its already embedded in the web app.

But still, It has got me thinking about a livechess "client", a stripped down browser, really, something smaller and faster than firefox that appears to be firefox as far as the chess.com's server is concerned. The main advantages (apart from loading and running faster than firefox) are that you could customise the look and feel of the games, install a button that dumps a completed game PGN into a text file and sets CPU analysis running whilst you just get on playing...

 Of course, you could also embed a chess engine into it and have it hint strong moves to you (this could also be done with greasemonkey and AJAX)... what you couldn't do though, is time-lag cheat - the client would still have to access the livechess application as normal, just not display it.

BirdsDaWord

grey-pieces, I love it...if I could only understand it all!  :-)  I am basically understanding that I have got your tech wheels turning...so this post made some good!

And thanks for the congrats Rainbow - I do have to give it to the guy!  His Stonewall was a bear!  I at first kept trying to find a good way to penetrate, but no luck, but finally I came up with the plan to counterpunch the wall with ...f6 and ...e5, and then ...g5 on the kingside, and his king was bare of pawns (so was mine, of course).  But he was a bit out of his comfort zone, needless to say.  Here was the beginning of the game.  Normally I play the Dutch, but I have been dipping into 1...Nf6 systems recently.

grey_pieces

With stonewalling ideas, I'm usually trying to line up a knight sac that will net me a couple of key pawns (either two for the knight, or one for the knight and one that will come off shortly due to being backward or doubled). This usually has the advantage of being a total surprise, even stronger players sometimes don't see the move coming and defend against it.

Was he ahead on time when he got out the bricks and mortar?

BirdsDaWord

He had maybe 2-3 minutes left when I finally began to crack the wall, or so it seemed.  Maybe even 5 minutes - you know how it is in chess - thinking intently and the time passes you by.  That is why I don't like 3 minute chess. I like to have some thinking time - it is good for the imagination.  I like at least 10 minute chess honestly. 

I wouldn't mind seeing an example of one of your knight sacs, if you don't mind to let the cat out of the bag!  :-)

grey_pieces
I wouldn't mind seeing an example of one of your knight sacs, if you don't mind to let the cat out of the bag!  :-)

I thinlk I have a game on record which demonstrates the principle, but my opponent wasn't playing his best game, so you could probably pull holes in it all over the shop.

Usually I come up against problems with stonewalling in live games - usually it costs you more time to work out how to crack the wall than it does to build and support it! It's a very valid blitz strategy, if you don't mind gunning for a cheap time win all the time.

I don't remember if any of my chess.com live-chess would be worth sharing, nor would I remember my opponents names. However, I will dig out the turnbased game later on and post it here for your perusal, it may or not be of any help, because I seem to remember that my opponent dropped his queen after the sac, which made everything easier for me!

grey_pieces

frrrr, turns out the game I was thinking of did not include this idea, though my opponent did stonewall and I have obviously confused it with another position against another player, this is irritating because It's making me feel senile.... Not to mention I just threw away a stunning tournament position (possibly falling for a cheap gamesmanship trick, which makes it doubly frustrating), Have made silly errors in the other position against the same guy after gaining the advantage with a sequence which began with a queen sac - a victim of overconfidence - and am now losing, AND I have wisdom-toothache. Oh, and that AJAX stuff that you don't understand? I can't seem to wrap my head around it either. I need to get a handle on it for a paid-project and it just won't go in my brain. I fear I have hit the upper limit of human learning at the ripe old age of 28.

Guess who's morning it ain't!

With regards to the stone-wall saccing idea, I will continue to search. I might have something on my desktop from my games on FICS. If I can find my desktop, and there is such a thing as FICS. =)

BirdsDaWord

lol - it sounds like you have your plate full!

SirBenjamin

Live Chess 2 is great.

I play the Live Chess feature every night on Chess.com & rarely have an issue with disconnect.  (I recommend Mozilla FireFox & of course a great internet connection, both of which I am graciously able to employ.)

However, I was given an invitation to demo the new mode since I've been so active on this site.  Live Chess 2 is nice because if you get disconnected (even on purpose:  i.e. - unplug your router, manually turn off computer, etc...) you can log back in and it will retain the game from where you disappeared.  They've made some very solid upgrades & you should all be excited for it's release!  It will be the end of your Live Chess woes!

One thing I wanted to add to the conversation.  Why don't you just play 'unrated' games on Live Chess if you're concerned about disconnect?  It seems a trivial thing to risk a disconnect, especially in an unrated game, when you're comparing it with other sites, logged in as a guest and facing bugs that ruin the game for you.

Just my thoughts, of course!  Hope this helps...

Benny

ShortKingDiogo

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