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Avatar of Martin_Stahl
Mozeg wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

@mozeg 1900 tactics rating is in fact, very close to an estimated 1400 OTB rating - in fact, I'd expect a 1400 FIDE player to score 2000+ on tactics, if he/she is serious about solving them. Chess.com tactics ratings are extremely overrated.

On chesstempo too, I definitely don't expect my tactics rating, which I believe was at least 2200-2300 the last time I used it (when I was under 2000 OTB), to be equal to my actual OTB rating.

Exactly my point. As there are also currently many FM's and IM's that are in the 2000 to 2200 range there seems to be a diminishing significance for tactical ability as the ratings rise. I believe its because better players make far less mistakes. Even at a 1400 level OTB those exotic tactical situations that put u a piece ahead are quite uncommon. 

 

You must live in an area with strong, under-rated players. I would say upwards of 80% of my games end up decided because of missed tactics, one way or another. Yeah, some are due to calculation errors but they are missed tactics just the same.

 

Most of my games have multiple points where one or both players miss tactical ideas. This is with players 1500-1600 OTB USCF. I even had a 2000 rated player miss a tactical shot that won me a pawn in a recent tourney. Of course, my follow-up moves were less than stellar meh.png

Avatar of Mozeg
Mozeg wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

@mozeg 1900 tactics rating is in fact, very close to an estimated 1400 OTB rating - in fact, I'd expect a 1400 FIDE player to score 2000+ on tactics, if he/she is serious about solving them. Chess.com tactics ratings are extremely overrated.

On chesstempo too, I definitely don't expect my tactics rating, which I believe was at least 2200-2300 the last time I used it (when I was under 2000 OTB), to be equal to my actual OTB rating.

Exactly my point. As there are also currently many FM's and IM's that are in the 2000 to 2200 range there seems to be a diminishing significance for tactical ability as the ratings rise. I believe its because better players make far less mistakes. Even at a 1400 level OTB those exotic tactical situations that put u a piece ahead are quite uncommon. 

And I believe u r correct about the chess.com trainer. Really hasn't used it for almost 2 years now, except for once or twice when he had gone to bed late and didn't feel like thinking. His OTB was in the range of  1100 - 1200 when he hit 1900 on tactics trainer. CT puzzles are far more more difficult at a given rating level but also has a loose association with OTB. Effectively setting up an attack while dealing with defense, and knowing openings have far more significance as ratings go up. 

Avatar of Mozeg
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

@mozeg 1900 tactics rating is in fact, very close to an estimated 1400 OTB rating - in fact, I'd expect a 1400 FIDE player to score 2000+ on tactics, if he/she is serious about solving them. Chess.com tactics ratings are extremely overrated.

On chesstempo too, I definitely don't expect my tactics rating, which I believe was at least 2200-2300 the last time I used it (when I was under 2000 OTB), to be equal to my actual OTB rating.

Exactly my point. As there are also currently many FM's and IM's that are in the 2000 to 2200 range there seems to be a diminishing significance for tactical ability as the ratings rise. I believe its because better players make far less mistakes. Even at a 1400 level OTB those exotic tactical situations that put u a piece ahead are quite uncommon. 

 

You must live in an area with strong, under-rated players. I would say upwards of 80% of my games end up decided because of missed tactics, one way or another. Yeah, some are due to calculation errors but they are missed tactics just the same.

 

Most of my games have multiple points where one or both players miss tactical ideas. This is with players 1500-1600 OTB USCF. I even had a 2000 rated player miss a tactical shot that won me a pawn in a recent tourney. Of course, my follow-up moves were less than stellar

By mistakes I mean what an engine would consider a mistake. There are occasional dropped or won pawns but fancy moves or tactics where u win a piece or an exchange (common in blitz) is uncommon in the OTB games. When running games thru an engine (eg chess-db) sudden 2 pt changes are rare perhaps once in several games and even 1+ point changes are uncommon. And I do not believe players are underrated.

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel
Mozeg wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

@mozeg 1900 tactics rating is in fact, very close to an estimated 1400 OTB rating - in fact, I'd expect a 1400 FIDE player to score 2000+ on tactics, if he/she is serious about solving them. Chess.com tactics ratings are extremely overrated.

On chesstempo too, I definitely don't expect my tactics rating, which I believe was at least 2200-2300 the last time I used it (when I was under 2000 OTB), to be equal to my actual OTB rating.

Exactly my point. As there are also currently many FM's and IM's that are in the 2000 to 2200 range there seems to be a diminishing significance for tactical ability as the ratings rise. I believe its because better players make far less mistakes. Even at a 1400 level OTB those exotic tactical situations that put u a piece ahead are quite uncommon. 

They're actually very common. U1500 players blunder pieces all the time, in my experience. More than half the games they'll make a simple blunder that ends the game immediately at some point, with or without pressure.

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

And I would contend that the FMs and IMs in the 2000-2200 range just don't try very hard - they take a few seconds maybe and just play something they feel is good. 

 

Avatar of Checkkillah

A simple question,how do you get above 2000 in bullet,seems very hard to reach 1700 even?

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

I make a lot of jokes about how you get 2000+ blitz just by not hanging pieces, but for 2000+ bullet, it's actually true:

to get 2000+ bullet all you have to do is quickly play reasonable moves that don't hang stuff, and take your opponent's hanging pieces. 

Also maybe find the occasional 2-move tactic or so, but mainly just don't hang pieces and take hanging pieces. But you also have to do this quickly, which is easier said than done.

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn

Yeah, and all you have to do to play tennis at a pro level is hit the ball over the net, but not out of bounds tongue.png

There's a lot of unconscious pattern recognition in speed play. You need to know the usual maneuvers in the openings you play and fast recognition of tactical patterns as well as fast recognition strategy, endgame, basically all kinds of patterns.

There's no trick to be 2000 bullet, just like there's no trick to be 1500 or 2500. Just play well enough to do it.

Avatar of Bad_Dobby_Fischer

1404

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

Yeah, as I said, it's easier said than done. Avoiding hanging stuff and seeing 2-move tactics quickly means that it has to be somewhat instinctive and ingrained, not something you can consciously decide to do quickly. 

Avatar of Mozeg
Cherub_Enjel wrote:
Mozeg wrote:
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

@mozeg 1900 tactics rating is in fact, very close to an estimated 1400 OTB rating - in fact, I'd expect a 1400 FIDE player to score 2000+ on tactics, if he/she is serious about solving them. Chess.com tactics ratings are extremely overrated.

On chesstempo too, I definitely don't expect my tactics rating, which I believe was at least 2200-2300 the last time I used it (when I was under 2000 OTB), to be equal to my actual OTB rating.

Exactly my point. As there are also currently many FM's and IM's that are in the 2000 to 2200 range there seems to be a diminishing significance for tactical ability as the ratings rise. I believe its because better players make far less mistakes. Even at a 1400 level OTB those exotic tactical situations that put u a piece ahead are quite uncommon. 

They're actually very common. U1500 players blunder pieces all the time, in my experience. More than half the games they'll make a simple blunder that ends the game immediately at some point, with or without pressure.

Funny it's not been my experience. My son has lost his fair share of games and they are generally the same, grinding games with a steady deterioration in position culminating  in a no chance end-game. No missed tactics when running thru an engine but  I may see a succession of inaccuracies resulting in a quick 2+ point  deficit. This often ends the game as it makes the position indefensible.

Maybe what you see as a tactic may be defensible by an engine but not a human. 

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

If players at the 1500 level, or even significantly above, are "grinding" your son down, I would have to say that your son just doesn't play actively enough, and when there's pressure, he backs down and plays passively. It avoids big tactical mistakes by simply keeping things protected and close, but it doesn't attempt to fight the opponent or do anything to make him/her have some errors. 

I would love to see an example of such a game.

Avatar of Checkkillah

Discuss about it day in and day out,ask questions like an idiot but eventually it all boils down to sheer talent at the game...got it.May be its like how Ronaldo or Messi hits the ball to the net and score a goal despite all the odds against them.Its all talent and bla bla.

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

*practice, not talent. 

Avatar of Checkkillah

That magic wand works on kids,not grownups.

Avatar of Mozeg
Cherub_Enjel wrote:

If players at the 1500 level, or even significantly above, are "grinding" your son down, I would have to say that your son just doesn't play actively enough, and when there's pressure, he backs down and plays passively. It avoids big tactical mistakes by simply keeping things protected and close, but it doesn't attempt to fight the opponent or do anything to make him/her have some errors. 

I would love to see an example of such a game.

I have so many examples. Here clearly losing without a major mistake until well after game a foregone conclusion, he played white his opponent rated somewhat higher:

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 g6 3. f4 Bg7 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5Nd4 6. Nxd4 cxd4 7. Ne2 e6 8. O-O Qb6 9. Bd3Ne7 10. Kh1 O-O 11. Bc4 Qc5 12. d3 d5 13. exd5Nxd5 14. Bxd5 Qxd5 15. Bd2 b5 16. Ng1 Bb7 17.Nf3 Rac8 18. Qc1 Rc7 19. Rf2 Rfc8 20. Ba5 Rc621. Be1 Rb6 22. a4 bxa4 23. Rxa4 Qb5 24. Rb4Qxd3 25. Qa1 Rxc2 26. Qb1 Be4 27. Qxc2 Qxc228. Rxc2 Bxc2 29. Rxb6 axb6 30. Bf2 d3 31. Bxb6Bxb2 32. Be3 Kf8 33. Kg1 Ke7 34. Kf1 Kd6 35.Bd2 f6 36. Kf2 e5 37. fxe5+ fxe5 38. Ke3 Kd5 39.h3 h6 40. Kf2 g5 41. g4 e4 42. Ne1 Bd4+ 43. Kf1e3 44. Ba5 Bb2 0-1

 Below black against a player slightly lower in rating, in 1300's, game was  a draw. Maybe u could see a way to exploit the position but engine doesn't show it. 

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3Bd6 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. Bg5 h6 8. Bh4 O-O 9. O-O Bg410. Nbd2 Re8 11. Qc2 Be7 12. Rfe1 Nd7 13. Bg3Nf6 14. h3 Be6 15. Bf5 Bxf5 16. Qxf5 Rf8 17. Ne5Nxe5 18. Bxe5 Qc8 19. Qxc8 Raxc8 20. Nf3 Ne421. Nh2 Bh4 22. g3 1/2-1/2 

He does win too, actually more often than he loses.  And occasionally he blows them away often with tactics but usually players are much lower rated. The point is that even in low level chess among evenly matched players the games are often grinding and I'm wondering if tactics are less important than people generally believe.   

 

Avatar of The_Chin_Of_Quinn
Checkkillah wrote:

Discuss about it day in and day out,ask questions like an idiot but eventually it all boils down to sheer talent at the game...got it.May be its like how Ronaldo or Messi hits the ball to the net and score a goal despite all the odds against them.Its all talent and bla bla.

It mostly boils down to how much effective practice and learning a person has done.

Talk to really good players, and they love to analyze and learn about all sorts of positions. Attack, defense, opening, endgame, it doesn't matter. Meanwhile the standard noob is asking "which 1 position can I learn to make me amazing?"

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
Mozeg wrote:

...

He does win too, actually more often than he loses.  And occasionally he blows them away often with tactics but usually players are much lower rated. The point is that even in low level chess among evenly matched players the games are often grinding and I'm wondering if tactics are less important than people generally believe.   

 

 

Without analyzing the example games, it is possible that Cherub_Enjel is correct. Maybe the games played are very conservative and there are no major weaknesses or imbalances introduced.

 

But even when there aren't active tactical shots on the board there are moves/lines where the position indicates a potential tactical resource the players have to defend against and may need to make positional concessions to avoid. The tactics are still there. Just because they never manifest in the game doesn't mean they aren't.

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

Your son loves to offers equal exchanges, and seems to take (make equal exchanges) whenever he can. In the second game, he had a very comfortable position out of the opening as white, but just offered exchanges of his active pieces to black's pieces that were less active, and soon the position was very equal

In the first game, it was much more serious, since in the grand prix attack (an opening I've played ever since I started serious chess), a wrong exchange, or wrongly timed exchange can leave white's position devoid of activity, which is essentially what happened.

After seeing these games, I understand what you're talking about. Your son deprives himself (and his opponent too) of the *opportunities* to make tactical blunders by just offering/making any equal exchanges possible, and otherwise plays rather non-challenging moves. It's difficult to play a tactic when you're just offering the opponent chances to get rid of the pieces all the time!

So it's not really what I imagine as "grinding" - when you grind an opponent down, you don't let him to play active moves, or develop counterplay - but your son just trades off his active pieces willingly, then it's kind of like your son just grinding himself down. 

But TLDR - Obviously positional play *does matter* - but while all you need is a basic positional understanding to get to a relatively high rating (which your son has son lack in at the moment), having good tactics and calculation will take you up much further.

One thing you should immediately tell your son is that equal exchanges are more often than not a mistake, and that he should keep the tension typically. But rather than me explaining it, you should show him this video, and tell him to take this advice very carefully - it will change his play immediately and allow him to start having the opportunity to play tactics more often.

Avatar of Cherub_Enjel

I would also advise that your son decline all draw offers and not offer a draw unless it's a worse position, or final round for prize, or some special circumstance. 

The draw in game 1 shouldn't have happened, because there's still plenty of chances for a side to make a blunder, especially in the ensuing endgame.