Recaptures: h vs f pawns

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Avatar of unkulunkulu

Hi everyone! I have a noob question maybe, but I want to hear some answers :)

Say we have a castled position with a plain pawn structure: f2,g2,h2 and we see a move B(example)xg3. Assuming that nothing extraordinary happening elsewhere on the board, wich pawn should be used to recapture?

I see more often the h pawn used to recapture, but I don't see the concrete reasons for that.


I think that some factors have to be considered:

1) H file safety (has enemy castled Qside and we will probably be facing a rook on h8)

2) An idea to have on open f file for our own rook

3) Maybe the presence of the dark squared enemy bishop?


And the same question about the fianchettoed structure (pawns on f2, g3, h2, Bg2).


Can anyone make a good explanation or show me some article maybe?


TIA

Avatar of Bur_Oak
unkulunkulu wrote:

I think that some factors have to be considered:

1) H file safety (has enemy castled Qside and we will probably be facing a rook on h8)

2) An idea to have on open f file for our own rook

3) Maybe the presence of the dark squared enemy bishop?

I think you largely answered your own question, and I doubt that you're "a newb."

Avatar of unkulunkulu

Yes, and I forgot to mention another factor that consists of several principles, but I consider it a single factor

4) Just mainaining less pawn islands, capturing towards the center. Maybe concretely supporting a bacwards pawn for example on e3.


But I want more, an advice from a strong player, this is chess.com, GMs read it and play here!

Avatar of unkulunkulu
Bur_Oak wrote:
unkulunkulu wrote:

I think that some factors have to be considered:

1) H file safety (has enemy castled Qside and we will probably be facing a rook on h8)

2) An idea to have on open f file for our own rook

3) Maybe the presence of the dark squared enemy bishop?

I think you largely answered your own question, and I doubt that you're "a newb."


Thanks for kind words, maybe I'm not a complete noob, but the question seems noobish to me :) I study chess from internet, so I don't have my, you know, chess guru, which will answer my questions :)

Thanks!

Avatar of CMGuess

Open the file that has your rook on it for king side attack, and keep the other ones closed for king side defense... it's that simple really, and in fact many grandmaster king side attacks are all about opening up that f file for king side domination!

Avatar of unkulunkulu

2Fezzik: thanks for the answer, but I will now ask more questions :)

>Has Black castled, and if so, to which side? If he's castled Q-side, an attack on the

>f-file may be a waste of time.

Yes, it should be a waste of time generally speaking, but if he castled Q-side then probably he will have an open h file which is sometimes really hard to defend.


Oh, maybe here I have a more concrete example. In bullet I sometimes meet the following thing (warning, maybe poor play as white):

 

But during the creation of the diagram I realised that here is a 100% f-pawn case: no e-pawn, no h-file danger, some attacking chances with a rook ready :)

Am I right or there's some "shadow sides" in this decision, maybe slightest? Secrets, I want chess secrets!


Maybe here (now, you see, I'm nooooooob, I'm quite sure that this diagram shows some blunders or missed chances :))

 

Oh, no! here everything is obvious if we remember about that bishop b3 :(
Ok, here: a simplified example (I didn't delete the prev. one just to show exactly which situations cause my doubts):
Ok, let's not take into account that white should be doomed because he is not bothered about his own king safety and assume that he will (probably) castle Q-side, so we throw away our thought of attacking him on king-side. which way to capture here?
Avatar of unkulunkulu

In the last example... What we DO take into account is that there's no immediate threats along the h file, Q has to spend some moves to get there, N is on f6 at the moment...

Avatar of SimonSeirup

If you recapture with the f pawn, e3 will become very week, and eventually the e pawn. I would almost never recapture with the f pawn, only very rare in the endgame.

Avatar of orangehonda

For what it's worth...

In the first diagram fx looks correct -- black has a lot of play along the f file for giving up e5 and should be good.

In the 2nd diagram like you said, pressure from b3 bishop requires hx

3rd diagram I'm tempted to go hx, but to be honest it looks like white is getting a very nice attack either way so I'm not sure which is relatively best.

Avatar of unkulunkulu
orangehonda wrote:

For what it's worth...

In the first diagram fx looks correct -- black has a lot of play along the f file for giving up e5 and should be good.

In the 2nd diagram like you said, pressure from b3 bishop requires hx

3rd diagram I'm tempted to go hx, but to be honest it looks like white is getting a very nice attack either way so I'm not sure which is relatively best.


Ok! Here it is! I'm interested in that "either way" part! So, Qs, Rs, some bishops, and/or knights on board, this is the situation generally. What are the clues I should look for? More specific than I described in my 1st and 2nd posts.

Avatar of unkulunkulu
unkulunkulu wroteQs, Rs, some bishops, and/or knights on board, this is the situation

Ok, it's called a middle game, you're right, my bad!

Avatar of orangehonda
unkulunkulu wrote:
orangehonda wrote:

For what it's worth...

In the first diagram fx looks correct -- black has a lot of play along the f file for giving up e5 and should be good.

In the 2nd diagram like you said, pressure from b3 bishop requires hx

3rd diagram I'm tempted to go hx, but to be honest it looks like white is getting a very nice attack either way so I'm not sure which is relatively best.


Ok! Here it is! I'm interested in that "either way" part! So, Qs, Rs, some bishops, and/or knights on board, this is the situation generally. What are the clues I should look for? More specific than I described in my 1st and 2nd posts.


Clues to look for are if you capture with the f pawn you disconnect your pawns for more pawn islands and white can play Bc4+ to exploit the weak diagonal... ok now actually I don't like fx :)

One benefit of fx though is that you can stop any h-file pressure by concentrating defenders on h7.  If you open the file fully with hx then you have extra squares to defend when white lines up his queen and rook (you'd have to at least defend h7 and h8).  But like I said, hx looks better now, less weakening.

This kind of attack can be deadly, but what black has going for him in that 3rd diagram is white's lack of development.  If white goes straight for the attack by playing Nxc6 and B out to e3 or g5 then black can play the annoying d5 and it looks like white doesn't have time to line up the classic attack.

 

Avatar of Bizarrebra

Let me complet Fezzik's answer:

With no other considerations, and as a general rule:

- In the middlegame, take towards the center.

- In the endgame, take away from the center.

Avatar of orangehonda
riuryK wrote:

Let me complet Fezzik's answer:

With no other considerations, and as a general rule:

- In the middlegame, take towards the center.

- In the endgame, take away from the center.


That really depends on the endgame... in k+p and in N endgames it may be good (the outside passer and all that) but in general, the more important factors in endgames include piece/king activity and targets.  If it keeps your pawns "healthy" , your pieces active or keeps the enemy king / pieces out, etc then it doesn't really matter if the capture is towards or away form the center.

Avatar of GuyOnTheCouch
Fezzik wrote:

Everything depends on the concrete situation.

First of all, this question seems to be only for the White player. 

If you have a pawn on e3, taking toward the center (hg3) is pretty much automatic.  That helps to create a nice pawn chain that you can expand upon later in the game. Taking with the f-pawn would create an additional weakness on e3 and any potential attack on the f-file would probably be neutralised.

Has Black castled, and if so, to which side? If he's castled Q-side, an attack on the f-file may be a waste of time.

The general rule, Capture toward the center, is generally correct.


In the endgame (king vs. king with rim pawn) it is usually a draw. The opponent just has to put his king in front of the pawn and its over. White’s king can’t (or at least not easily) sumo Black’s king out of the corner.  

Avatar of unkulunkulu

Thanks, folks, I think I've improved a little bit thanks to your opinions and suggestions! Meet you at the battlegrounds! Cool