Sad case of high school chess cheating

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conejiux

Are there a chance that a super GM, Carlsen or whatever chess player, cheat this way with higher technology? The good news about this new gadget cheating, is that all the old players I respect, Karpov, Fischer, Kasparov, Capablanca, Morphy, Alekhine, etc. were real geniuses, who worked hard to achieve his goals. They are giants to me, today chess players, really, I don't know. Technology is the good, the bad and the ugly to chess.

JM3000

"Man i dont believe there isnt any titled player in the world who doesnt know at least the names breyer variation and panov botvinnik attack."

Many old books (70s) in Spain don't contain the name of the  openings variants:

For example: P.Cherta, Defensa Siciliana Variante Najdorf (Sicilian Defense Najdorf variation)

In old books the Richter-Rauzer attack is the Anti-Dragon Variation, etc. 

The Scheveningen is contempled as Sicilian e6+d6 system etc.

In this moments the study of the opening is very fashionable but there remain players that it pass. In the last Open I played had a Catalan Master (NM) that use Bird with the Leningrad-Dutch pawn structure in any game with white.

The point is selecting a single aspect of chess knowledge and use it to determine if any player is cheating is go faraway. 

InfiniteFlash
conejiux wrote:

Are there a chance that a super GM, Carlsen or whatever chess player, cheat this way with higher technology? The good news about this new gadget cheating, is that all the old players I respect, Karpov, Fischer, Kasparov, Capablanca, Morphy, Alekhine, etc. were real geniuses, who worked hard to achieve his goals. They are giants to me, today chess players, really, I don't know. Technology is the good, the bad and the ugly to chess.

Even houdini was struggling to keep up with Magnus's moves during the candidate's tournament. Of course, he missed various tactical possibilities but quite a few of moves positionally speaking were not spotted by the computer for a long time. These moves were of course, likely the best move in the position at the time.

iFrancisco
TetsuoShima wrote: Man i dont believe there isnt any titled player in the world who doesnt know at least the names breyer variation and panov botvinnik attack.

Well, there was already one that posted in this thread...

FirebrandX wrote:

That wasn't my point at all. My point was you are quite unique to have learned the variations without the names to the point of NM level. Most people when they learn chess openings from a coach, the coach tells them "Ok, this is the Sicilian Dragon", not "Ok, this is 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6". See where I'm coming from now?

Ah, I probably made some confusion here then. Sure, if you name major openings like the Sicilian Dragon or Open Ruy Lopez then yes I do know their names and some variations. You used the example of that 3. exd5 4. c4 line in the Caro (what's it name again Smile) and that is indeed one I did not know the name of because it isn't very major (in my repetoire, at least). I cannot tell you the names of very many 1. d4 openings outside of my responses as black (e.g. Tartakower variation in the QGD) because I've never played 1. d4; I forget which opening is the Pirc or Modern because the move orders are similar. Oh well.

As you can probably tell, I didn't exactly make master off of my opening knowledge. Just studying  mostly tactics and endgames really can take you to NM/FM level.

shepi13

And my GM coach didn't even know what the Englund gambit was.

I showed him it, and he's like, "What on earth is that?" I don't think he even knew 1 d4 e5 was a legal position!

billyblatt

You can find a lot of chess main lines and variations here:

http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/ch-list.htm

edit:

The Oxford Companion to Chess lists 1,327 named openings and variants.

Conflagration_Planet

What was his punishment, if any.

waffllemaster

Just analyze with a player for a bit and you'll get a feeling how much they know.  If the difference in strength is a few hundred points both players will realize it fairly quickly.

Abhishek2
Shadowknight911 wrote:

using openings names is not the way to go to "test someone's knowledge".  I for one wouldn't know what the Breyer varation is other than it references the Ruy Lopez.  And I have no clue what the Panov-Botvinnik attack is other than it's part of a Caro-Kann.  Beyond that, wouldn't be able to tell you a thing about either opening.  What I know is what I play or could play and that's pretty much it.  And no I'm not a titled player but am pretty close.

close?

Mainline_Novelty
FirebrandX wrote:

I refuse to believe that masters on the whole do not know the names of the lines of major opening variations. Every time I watch vidoes by GMs on openings, not only do they know the names of every variant, but they can even rattle off games played with dates and who played them.

All we have here are a couple of low-end masters (or not quite masters yet) making an alternate case. My original anecdote was in regards to someone playing at top GM level (because they were cheating), and I'm sure you all can agree that any top GM is going to be quite familiar with something as celebrated as the Panov-Botvinnik Attack.

But if a GM's gonna do a video on an opening, they obviously have time to prepare what they'll say during the lecture, so they'll look up the specific names of each line, and some games played in the line (although these they may well off the top of their heads)

CHCL
Shadowknight911 wrote:

Phildor and Lucena positions, that I would agree on, anyone above 1200 "should" know. 

I teach an endgame class at my former elementary school and I'm amazed that these kids 1000-1500 hardly know their endgame material - so frustraging...

Gosh, I know. I think it is partly because of school.....At least that is my problem. Getting the endgame book out now.

TetsuoShima
Mainline_Novelty wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:

I refuse to believe that masters on the whole do not know the names of the lines of major opening variations. Every time I watch vidoes by GMs on openings, not only do they know the names of every variant, but they can even rattle off games played with dates and who played them.

All we have here are a couple of low-end masters (or not quite masters yet) making an alternate case. My original anecdote was in regards to someone playing at top GM level (because they were cheating), and I'm sure you all can agree that any top GM is going to be quite familiar with something as celebrated as the Panov-Botvinnik Attack.

But if a GM's gonna do a video on an opening, they obviously have time to prepare what they'll say during the lecture, so they'll look up the specific names of each line, and some games played in the line (although these they may well off the top of their heads)

but pannov botvinnik, i mean botvinnik must at least have played it a lot and not to mention Fischers famous game wich was a really nice game by the.

SmyslovFan

Thing is, openings are a bit idiosyncratic, but endgames are universal. No master can reach master without studying the endgame, but specific openings may not be studied. 

I know several masters who only play a limited opening as white, such as the Veresov or 1.f4, and as Black never play the Caro-Kann. So why would they need to know the Panov-Botvinnik?

All masters do need to know the endgames. So even though iFrancisco claimed he needed a few minutes to recall the Lucena position, he did in fact recall it. 

The pawn endgame position I mentioned earlier is another one that every master should get right 100% of the time, but that most players below ~1700 get at least partially wrong.

TetsuoShima
SmyslovFan wrote:

Thing is, openings are a bit idiosyncratic, but endgames are universal. No master can reach master without studying the endgame, but specific openings may not be studied. 

I know several masters who only play a limited opening as white, such as the Veresov or 1.f4, and as Black never play the Caro-Kann. So why would they need to know the Panov-Botvinnik?

All masters do need to know the endgames. So even though iFrancisco claimed he needed a few minutes to recall the Lucena position, he did in fact recall it. 

The pawn endgame position I mentioned earlier is another one that every master should get right 100% of the time, but that most players below ~1700 get at least partially wrong.

im the biggest patzer on earth i also never play the pannov botvinnik but i still know its name. The thing about the pannov botvinnik is that it even stands out its really hard to mix it up with something else, otherwise i agree with you.

But i still think its best as someone mentioned just to ask about the game afterwards.

alain978

100% true. Any player could be perfect in openings and middlegames, but if he's not good in endgames, he won't win often (unless early resign). It's not won until you've won it!There's a lot of paths from openings to a single ending, but there's only ONE path from that ending to a won game...

SmyslovFan
Shadowknight911 wrote:

109 points away from the first grand prize - NM! Hopefully can get that sometime in the next 12 months.

There was an informal survey taken among National Masters and experts a few years ago. You may be interested in some of the questions and their answers:

Question 1:  “What average rating level would a player have to be at from a knowledge and skill level (ability to link chess concepts together) to reach the halfway point to 2200?”

Before answering this, several masters pointed out that at the higher levels raw talent and a high ability to link complex concepts together is an absolute must (or the player won’t ever make master) and it is assumed that the player in question possesses this ability, for their answer to apply.

Given this, the answers ranged consistently from 1800 – 1850.

Question 2:  “Assuming that 1800 is the halfway point to master, what rating would be 75% of the way to 2200?”

Again, the answers were quite consistent…2050-2100, with a slight bias toward the upper end of 2100.

This makes sense statistically.  The mid-point between 1800 and 2200 is 2000.  But remember we are overlaying this linear scale over the normal distribution.  This finding may shock many high 2000 experts who think they are really close to 2200 (which they are by adding 100 points to their strength for good days…but the bad days also have to be averaged in!).   But to hold a 2200 rating you must beat masters 50% of the time for the math to work out!  Based on this poll, a 2075 rated player is, on average, three-fourths of the way to master.  Remember, anyone who achieves an average rating of 2100 has a chance to surpass 2200 and get a master certificate from USCF…IF they put together a string of 3-4 good tournaments in a row . 

Source: http://www.coloradomasterchess.com/Informant/Ratings%20and%20Expectations.htm

QuantumWave

The above is not the only case of a 16 year old allegedly cheating at a chess tournament.

This case however involved the police after the 16 year old was dragged from a toilet cubicle. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/chess-union-announces-inquiry-into-allegations-of-cheating-at-tournament-1.1371767

ClavierCavalier

That's just crazy.  Whoever heard of Irish news?  :-p

netzach

Had anyone troubled to listen maybe wouldn't have sent money and guns?

ClavierCavalier

What?