Sandbagging at chess
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I thought rating floors were supposed to prevent sandbagging?
yes, but he was FIDE rated 2000+ and 1212 USCF
You probably should complain to the tournament director.
The TD is informed.
If a player has not been an active USCF member for a long time then they bring that player back at whatever their last rating was when their membership was active. That they achieved a higher FIDE rating than their last active USCF rating doesn't matter. This player might win some tournaments for a while, but eventually his/her USCF rating will catch up to their FIDE rating and then the rating floor will prevent it from dropping into a lower bracket. I don't think there is much that can be done in this instance except to wait for his two ratings to level out otherwise this player will NEVER be allowed to compete in any rated event. I don't think the alternatives of USCF tacking 800-900 points onto his rating or letting him register for 2000-2100 bracket tournaments while his rating is so low are going to happen.If he is a paid up USCF member, you can't completely deny him the right to play, so what do you do?
Why is it such a big deal, anyway? When I was active it wasn't like there was ever any big money changing hands in the 1200-1299 group so at worst he denies a few legit 1200-1299 players of some cheap plastic trophies.
I think the 1400 and under bracket has a 1st prize of $15,000 or so at World Open. For some people, that's a pretty good incentive to sandbag. But don't they cross-check players with FIDE ratings to prevent this sort of thing?
silentfilmstar13 wrote: I think the 1400 and under bracket has a 1st prize of $15,000 or so at World Open. For some people, that's a pretty good incentive to sandbag. But don't they cross-check players with FIDE ratings to prevent this sort of thing?
Hmmm, Ok that makes a difference. In small, local tournaments it wouldn't matter as much but for something big like that, then yeah, maybe something needs to be done. I think if they don't cross check their rating with other chess federations, then they shouldn't be playing in big, national tourneys until they get their rating up to where it should be by playing locally.
Marshal_Dillon wrote:
If a player has not been an active USCF member for a long time then they bring that player back at whatever their last rating was when their membership was active. That they achieved a higher FIDE rating than their last active USCF rating doesn't matter. This player might win some tournaments for a while, but eventually his/her USCF rating will catch up to their FIDE rating and then the rating floor will prevent it from dropping into a lower bracket. I don't think there is much that can be done in this instance except to wait for his two ratings to level out otherwise this player will NEVER be allowed to compete in any rated event. I don't think the alternatives of USCF tacking 800-900 points onto his rating or letting him register for 2000-2100 bracket tournaments while his rating is so low are going to happen.If he is a paid up USCF member, you can't completely deny him the right to play, so what do you do?
Why is it such a big deal, anyway? When I was active it wasn't like there was ever any big money changing hands in the 1200-1299 group so at worst he denies a few legit 1200-1299 players of some cheap plastic trophies.
Marshal_Dillo, it is explicitly stated in the USCF rules that a player must report his FIDE or any other foreign rating to TD (2000 FIDE ~ 2100 USCF). If he did not its a big violation. As you said "his rating will catch up", well no, he is suppose to be rated high right at this point, otherwise its called "rating manipulations".
The deal is this: he is 1212 rated USCF he comes up and takes 1st in strong Memorial tournament smacking couple of high rated players and winning all the games. Later, TD finds out that his membership has expired 2 years ago. 1212 guy was telling anyone there that he is a sandbagger and aiming for the world open this year, but he did not get banned for that. Is it fair?? Well, 5 days later I got awarded 1st instead (tht was yesterday), so now it is!
silentfilmstar13 wrote: I think the 1400 and under bracket has a 1st prize of $15,000 or so at World Open. For some people, that's a pretty good incentive to sandbag. But don't they cross-check players with FIDE ratings to prevent this sort of thing?
Exactly, I was thining about going to the World Open this year, but after accidents like this I don't think I want to pay 400$ just to face a sandbagger. . .
It is very sad.
Yury wrote:
Is there any way to prove that a person is sendbagging on USCF tournament, just to get into the lower World Open section?? I recentely faced such sandbaggers: my blog post about sandbaggers.
What if somebody has played in USCF tournament with expired membership? Does he has to return the prize money? (the same sandbagging persona)
I'm just curious, but is there any way to show that a person's posts on chess.com are primarily a means of getting members here to look at their rival website? I'm not saying it's happened, it's just sparked my curiosity.
Duffer, as an Attorney you should understand the consequences of false accusations. And also, rival's website is not correct here because I gave a link to a rival's blog.
Yury> Marshal_Dillo, it is explicitly stated in the USCF rules that a player must report his FIDE or any other foreign rating to TD (2000 FIDE ~ 2100 USCF). If he did not its a big violation. As you said "his rating will catch up", well no, he is suppose to be rated high right at this point, otherwise its called "rating manipulations".
I think you are only half right.
Rules> Players who fail to disclose foreign or FIDE ratings may be expelled.
Rules> US player ratings: JULY LIST USED; FIDE ratings not used. "
Players must report their FIDE rating, but if they have a USCF rating, their FIDE rating is not used, just like Dillon explained. And the tournament is not required to expel a player who fails to disclose their FIDE rating, although it's one of their options (probably overkill in a situation where it would have been unused anyway).
This is probably a legal loophole that should be closed (players with an active FIDE rating that's much higher than their less active USCF rating).
It seems to me that if a player has both a fide and a uscf rating but one is much larger than the other the larger of the two should be used? This would help in the battle against sandbaggers. When I asked the TD of a US tourney about my wife playing he inquired about her rating. I told him she has a fide rating but no uscf and he said they would add 50 points to her fide rating and use it as her rating. I have heard sometimes as much as 100 points are added to fide ratings to give one a uscf rating for a tourney.
I agree with you both! Yes, otherwise it is almost like cheating to have 2000FIDE and play with only 1212 USCF! This hole in the USCF rules should definately be fixed!
First, there is a difference between the USCF and the organizers of the World Open, the Continental Chess Association (CCA). When a player returns to the USCF he has the rating that he left with. But the CCA can deny a player from playing in a tournament or particular section for whatever reason they like -- including that players FIDE, Canadian, British, or any other rating. The only thing to USCF could do to prevent this is strip the CCA of it's affiliate status so that it can not run tournaments. But the CCA is the largest tournament organizer in the country, so that isn't going to happen.
In fact, the CCA has in the past given rating section floors to players who won more than $1000 in one of it's own tournaments. For example, if you win $2000 at Foxwoods in April in the U1600 section, the lowest section they will let you play at the World Open is U1800, even if your rating is still under 1600.
Unfortunately, it's simply too much work for the tournament organizers to check for foreign or FIDE ratings of every single player in a tournament the size of the World Open. They only chance they have is to just check players who are winning a section or are turned in by other players. Removing a player from a section several rounds into the tournament causes its own problems. The results of the players they have defeated are just as unfair.
Thank you, loomis it was very informative! I did not know that CCA and USCF are completely inderpendent, I thought CCA is a part of USCF.
Reb wrote: It seems to me that if a player has both a fide and a uscf rating but one is much larger than the other the larger of the two should be used? This would help in the battle against sandbaggers. When I asked the TD of a US tourney about my wife playing he inquired about her rating. I told him she has a fide rating but no uscf and he said they would add 50 points to her fide rating and use it as her rating. I have heard sometimes as much as 100 points are added to fide ratings to give one a uscf rating for a tourney.
The thing I want to know is if USCF is a FIDE affiliated federation, why the difference in the ratings in the first place? Why can't they agree to compute ratings the same way FIDE does?
Marshal_Dillon wrote: The thing I want to know is if USCF is a FIDE affiliated federation, why the difference in the ratings in the first place? Why can't they agree to compute ratings the same way FIDE does?
No, FIDE and USCF are completely independent, say , like FIBA and NBA. Well, it looks like FIDE Rating = USCF Rating + 50 or 100 pts. Yes, it would be nice for FIDE = USCF. But even if it happens there is Canadian Chess Fed ratings, French, Chinese, etc..... etc.... It's would be nice if people start using single language all over the world and currency too.
Even if they use the same formula to compute ratings (and I believe the formulas are nearly the same or identical), the ratings will be different because you have a different rating pool. Also, FIDE will not rate any player until they perform above a certain level (used to be 2000, then 1800, it may now be 1600), so everybody in the FIDE rating pool is above average.
Is there any way to prove that a person is sendbagging on USCF tournament, just to get into the lower World Open section?? I recentely faced such sandbaggers: my blog post about sandbaggers.
What if somebody has played in USCF tournament with expired membership? Does he has to return the prize money? (the same sandbagging persona)