Should a beginner play d4 or e4 first?

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toiyabe

LOL @ the London annoying the hell out of the KID players.  Easy day at the office for any KID player once he sees the typical coward who plays London garbage.  

penandpaper0089
Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

LOL @ the London annoying the hell out of the KID players.  Easy day at the office for any KID player once he sees the typical coward who plays London garbage.  

It's not without it's dangers.

 

edubois314

I vote for 1. d4    

to survive 1. e4 is in large part just memorization to avoid tricks, traps, and quick mates... or worse yet trying to use them yourself, which probably won't work often (since everyone else is learning them) and then and just leave you with a bad position.  I think 1. d4 is a better way to just learn how pieces fit together and the overall flow of the game, by playing games with slower, more subtle development, attack, defense, and king safety all taken together

SIowMove
LeonSKennedy992 wrote:

 

The London System (queen pawn opening) is almost entirely immune to traps and tricks.  It is perfect for a beginner.  

The problem with teaching beginners "system" openings is that they often try to reach the same kind of setup, regardless of what the opponent is doing.

Throw such a player at me, and I'll just do something like this:

Here, black's got a comfortable, easy game. White's given black no difficulties to deal with. White, on the other hand, has some positional issues that he'll need to work around.

And white's probably not enjoying the position, especially if they were hoping for a more closed, "London-ish" setup.

So, yeah, teaching a beginner the London (or any other system) is fine—as long as the beginner is also taught to adjust and change their opening if the position calls for it.

Instead of playing a "system"—play the board.

Ashvapathi

I think e4 is best opening in general because it gives white a much better advantage. Having said that, at what point does it make sense to switch to d4? I think the shift from e4 to d4 makes sense around 2200. Some players do it early at 1800. The justification for this shift is that black has many asymmetric replies like Sicilian, french, scandi, modern-pirc, caro, or even Owens and alekhine. At lower levels, you can deal with them on the board without too much preparation. But, as you go higher, it requires more preparation for each of them. Moreover, black would be playing one particular defense in a dedicated manner, so they pretty good at it. Whereas, white has to deal with these well prepared opponents on their strong turf. At this point, it makes sense to simply sidestep all this by playing d4. I think this situation occurs for most e4 players around 2200(or even 1800).

But for a beginner, there is really no advantage gained by eschewing e4. Infact, not knowing the essential e4 game will be detrimental to beginners if they play d4 just to avoid sharp open games.

LeonSKennedy992

Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

LOL @ the London annoying the hell out of the KID players.  Easy day at the office for any KID player once he sees the typical coward who plays London garbage.  

No offense, but you are a 1400 player (good rating, but yeah). AND the world champion employs the London all the time.....are you calling him a coward???

LeonSKennedy992

MegasAlexandros86 wrote:

Never played e4 in my life... always played d4 and c4, mostly d4 and london happy.png

 

d4 can be tactical and aggresive, check out my game played today:

 

That was a beautiful, beautiful game MegasAlexandros86. Thank you for sharing it. Many people have the misconception that queen pawn games are slow, but that is often not the case at all. The London System with the knight on e5 can very often lead to a swift attack on the kingside as I said earlier. Good game, again..thanks for sharing :)

kindaspongey

"... For players with very limited experience, I recommend using openings in which the play can be clarified at an early stage, often with a degree of simplification. To accomplish this safely will take a little study, because you will have to get used to playing wiith open lines for both sides' pieces, but you can't eliminate risk entirely in the opening anyway. ... teachers all over the world suggest that inexperienced players begin with 1 e4. ... You will undoubtedly see the reply 1 ... e5 most often when playing at or near a beginner's level, ... After 2 Nf3, 2 ... Nc6 will occur in the bulk of your games. ... I recommend taking up the classical and instructive move 3 Bc4 at an early stage. Then, against 3 ... Bc5, it's thematic to try to establish the ideal centre by 4 c3 and 5 d4; after that, things can get complicated enough that you need to take a look at some theory and learn the basics; ... Of course, you can also play 1 d4 ... A solid and more-or-less universal set-up is 2 Nf3 and 3 Bf4, followed in most cases by 4 e3, 5 Be2 and 6 0-0. I'd rather see my students fight their way through open positions instead; however, if you're not getting out of the opening alive after 1 e4, this method of playing 1 d4 deserves consideration. ... a commonly suggested 'easy' repertoire for White with 1 Nf3 and the King's indian Attack ... doesn't lead to an open game or one with a clear plan for White. Furthermore, it encourages mechanical play. Similarly, teachers sometimes recommend the Colle System ..., which can also be played too automatically, and usually doesn't lead to an open position. For true beginners, the King's Indian Attack and Colle System have the benefit of offering a safe position that nearly guarantees passage to some kind of playable middlegame; they may be a reasonable alternative if other openings are too intimidating. But having gained even a small amount of experience, you really should switch to more open and less automatic play." - IM John Watson in a section of his 2010 book, Mastering the Chess Openings, Volume 4
https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-perfect-opening-for-the-lazy-student

https://www.chess.com/article/view/how-to-understand-openings

kindaspongey

"... Once you identify an opening you really like and wish to learn in more depth, then should you pick up a book on a particular opening or variation. Start with ones that explain the opening variations and are not just meant for advanced players. ..." - Dan Heisman (2001)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140626180930/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman06.pdf
Two quotes from Winning Chess Openings by GM Yasser Seirawan:
"I hope I've provided you with food for thought and that you now have a better understanding of the reasons behind most chess openings."
"I hope that this book will stimulate you into buying further books that are more specific about the openings and defenses that you might enjoy."

ServiceMyBishop
LeonSKennedy992 wrote:
Fixing_A_Hole wrote:

LOL @ the London annoying the hell out of the KID players.  Easy day at the office for any KID player once he sees the typical coward who plays London garbage.  

No offense, but you are a 1400 player (good rating, but yeah). AND the world champion employs the London all the time.....are you calling him a coward???

yea i agree 

Madness_Carlsen
depends on if you wanna win games or learn how to play. if you only care about losing as few games as possible, stick to london system amd repeat ot every game. if you wanna learn to see tactics and implement them in games, play sharp e4 stuff, like the scotch gambit, morra, or even kings gambit. hikarua recently gave this tipp on stream.
LeonSKennedy992
Madness_Carlsen wrote:
depends on if you wanna win games or learn how to play. if you only care about losing as few games as possible, stick to london system amd repeat ot every game. if you wanna learn to see tactics and implement them in games, play sharp e4 stuff, like the scotch gambit, morra, or even kings gambit. hikarua recently gave this tipp on stream.

 

Why can't you learn with the london system?  The London System is like a sleeping dragon.  If black is NOT precise, he can get into hot water rather quickly on the kingside.

LeonSKennedy992
ciarli wrote:

a beginner must play d4 because e4 will make a traumatic player out of him, deluded from his skills. But this is wrong because it is e4 that is a crazy gambit or opening. anyway going for queen gambit it needs high level of skills but a d4 winaver will be fine to understand the logic of the game!

 

I am sorry, sir.  But it is a bit hard to understand what you are saying.  Your grammar is a bit odd.

Candidate35

As a chess instructor of mostly new and beginner chess players, kids and adults, I teach opening principles foremost and introduce them to various openings early on. Kids naturally gravitate towards 1.e4 and open games, loving the traps and many tactics inherent in the set ups often resulting from that. Adults tend to quickly pick safe if sometimes passive openings, especially system openings primarily and try to limit the traps and tactics early on so they can get a slower "strategic" game that they feel they can understand better. While kids have a known tendency to improve more rapidly than adults for various reasons, I can't help but notice this opening mindset as attributing towards that. As such in my limited experience, if I felt compelled to suggest an opening move for beginners I'd say 1.e4 based on the results I've seen of my students. 

LeonSKennedy992
Candidate35 wrote:

As a chess instructor of mostly new and beginner chess players, kids and adults, I teach opening principles foremost and introduce them to various openings early on. Kids naturally gravitate towards 1.e4 and open games, loving the traps and many tactics inherent in the set ups often resulting from that. Adults tend to quickly pick safe if sometimes passive openings, especially system openings primarily and try to limit the traps and tactics early on so they can get a slower "strategic" game that they feel they can understand better. While kids have a known tendency to improve more rapidly than adults for various reasons, I can't help but notice this opening mindset as attributing towards that. As such in my limited experience, if I felt compelled to suggest an opening move for beginners I'd say 1.e4 based on the results I've seen of my students. 

 

See, but the London has quite a few tactical ideas.  It is not this super boring opening that kids wouldn't like.  Thank you for your comment btw.  

Candidate35
LeonSKennedy992 wrote:
Candidate35 wrote:

As a chess instructor of mostly new and beginner chess players, kids and adults, I teach opening principles foremost and introduce them to various openings early on. Kids naturally gravitate towards 1.e4 and open games, loving the traps and many tactics inherent in the set ups often resulting from that. Adults tend to quickly pick safe if sometimes passive openings, especially system openings primarily and try to limit the traps and tactics early on so they can get a slower "strategic" game that they feel they can understand better. While kids have a known tendency to improve more rapidly than adults for various reasons, I can't help but notice this opening mindset as attributing towards that. As such in my limited experience, if I felt compelled to suggest an opening move for beginners I'd say 1.e4 based on the results I've seen of my students. 

 

See, but the London has quite a few tactical ideas.  It is not this super boring opening that kids wouldn't like.  Thank you for your comment btw.  

 

I wasn't commenting on whether the London System has tactics or not, I used to play it regularly, nor did I say kids wouldn't like it, although I've never had a kid as a student who chose that opening. I'm say in my experience so far, all but one kid has chosen e4 and various lines resulting from that, whereas I've only had several adults choose e4 (two had even taken up the London!) and the kids have improved more rapidly than my adult students. Once again, I acknowledge that various factors exist in chess improvement; I'm not saying their openings caused the improvement exclusively but I can't overlook the trend I see either from their opening preferences and rate of improvement.

penandpaper0089
edubois314 wrote:

I vote for 1. d4    

to survive 1. e4 is in large part just memorization to avoid tricks, traps, and quick mates... or worse yet trying to use them yourself, which probably won't work often (since everyone else is learning them) and then and just leave you with a bad position.  I think 1. d4 is a better way to just learn how pieces fit together and the overall flow of the game, by playing games with slower, more subtle development, attack, defense, and king safety all taken together

To "survive" 1.e4 is to stop blundering. That's all it is. Traps only work if you blunder. They're traps not forced losses. There are very few positions like say, the fried liver where you can easily just fall into a dangerous position without doing anything that looks obviously bad. But there are traps after 1.d4.

 

 

solis-portus

"Look at how easy it is to play the london system.  This game is me (as white of course) against a 1700.  This is a game I just played a couple minutes ago.  Time control was 15 minutes with 10 second delay.  I had 15 minutes left at the end and he was absolutely crushed.  The game is below.....

LeonSKennedy992 vs. Yaryaran ..."

 

If you're 'absolutely crushing an opponent' shouldn't you delete his/her name as a courtesy - just a thought. tongue.png ... just kidding. Good post!

 

 

ChristOurSavior

Both openings have traps that you can fall into... just making it clear happy.png

 

Yigor

The beginner should play 1. Nf3, it's more flexible. blitz.pnggrin.pngblitz.png