The 50 move rule shouldn't exist!

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Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
ZebraGang wrote:

There are at most a few hundred examples of games where someone will win in over 50 moves but a million more examples of games where its impossible to win. What would you do then?

It doesn't matter how realistic or rare the endgames/positions are, the rules of the game has to take ALL possibilities into account.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

1st, of all there's time control. 2nd, the player has the right to keep trying. It doesn't hurt the losing side to move his king around to random squares, but that isn't the main issue. The main issue is when people take advantage of the rule to escape inevitable mates, such as this example from the blitz championship:

Black claims Nb8 was move 50, but he still is mated next move. In this case, the game will end, next move, so there is no reason to claim 50 move rule. The 50 move is rule is to stop obviously drawn games from continuing, not to give draws to losers. The arbiters granted white the win, and rightly so.

Avatar of MARattigan
EndgameStudy wrote:

A rook wouldn't be able to force mate against a king except in a couple positions. Promoting to a queen almost always wins vs 2 knights from positions where king is on side of board or knights are connected/far away.

Is this the other position? No doubt then it would be only in those two positions that Black would consider promoting to a rook.

As I said in my response to your request for an algorithm, 38% of the KNNKQ positions that could be arrived at by conversion from a KNNKP ending are drawn. (Stat. from Wilhelm/Nalimov.)  

 

(Nunn describes KNNKQ as "generally drawn", but I have my doubts.)

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
ZebraGang wrote:

Have you ever heard of increment 

I know what increments are, but the players are making moves every 5 seconds AT MOST in a blitz game, even 1000 moves would only take like an hour.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

My point is a move limit isn't necessary.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

No, u can have a universal time limit. 3 min+2 sec increment, but ALSO, the game must end in 2 hours, regardless of the players individual time remaining.

Avatar of tmodel66

This is a basic rule of chess, like playing on a board with 64 squares, and it makes plenty of sense.

 

If you can't checkmate your opponent OR capture a piece OR move a pawn (OR force your opponent to) in 50 moves, you don't have a decisive advantage.

 

Just because you have more material doesn't mean you get the point, you have to execute.  

 

It would easier to claim you should win a game where you stalemate an opponent, but there is a rule about that.  Or when you have the "decisive advantage" of an extra minor piece vs. the lone king or an extra pawn that could become a queen but is unable to because of opposition, but those are draws as well. 

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
tmodel66 wrote:

This is a basic rule of chess, like playing on a board with 64 squares, and it makes plenty of sense.

 

If you can't checkmate your opponent OR capture a piece OR move a pawn (OR force your opponent to) in 50 moves, you don't have a decisive advantage.

 

Just because you have more material doesn't mean you get the point, you have to execute.  

 

It would easier to claim you should win a game where you stalemate an opponent, but there is a rule about that.  Or when you have the "decisive advantage" of an extra minor piece vs. the lone king or an extra pawn that could become a queen but is unable to because of opposition, but those are draws as well. 

1. That's my point. If your only given 50 moves, your not given a chance to execute in endgames that take MORE THAN 50 MOVES to force mate. I listed a ton of examples, some of which require over 500 moves, let alone 50. The rule shave to take ALL possibilities into account, and this rule doesn't. Also, players shouldn't be able to claim a draw when they'll be mated next move, but 50 moves have already occurred. They still lost, just took a little longer, but they still lost and shouldn't get a free draw. In  this example:

Even if the move Nb8 was move 50, he's mated next move, so he still loses. This happened in the blitz championship, and the arbiters granted white the win, (cause he hit the clock before claiming or something-serves him right LOL) and RIGHTLY SO.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
ZebraGang wrote:

In classical games must end in 2 hours even though they are supposed to end in 5. In blitz games usually end in 10 minutes and at most 15 minutes. I agree with your idea wasting 2 hours of someone's time for something that should end in 10 minutes is completely reasonable.

Well that's chess. Some games do take a long time. Those endgames are what make chess interesting. You can't just say, ohh it's been 20 minutes end it already. NO! They want to play it out. They are entitled to.

Avatar of Brian-E

@EndgameStudy Does your latest recommendation of a time limit on games offer any difference in practice with a limit on the number of moves (without pawn move or capture)? It seems to me that your stated objections to the 50 move rule would equally apply when the game ends artifically because of time limit. Or am I missing something?

Avatar of MARattigan
EndgameStudy wrote:

They want to play it out. They are entitled to.

No they are not entitled to - that's the point of your topic. But if you think the rules should change then you need to think of a sensible change. Simply scrapping the 50-move rule is not a sensible change. 

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

If the 50 move rule affects so few games anyway, what's wrong with scrapping it? So occasionally, once in a blue moon u have a game that lasts 6 hours. At least it's fair for both players.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Brian-E wrote:

@EndgameStudy Does your latest recommendation of a time limit on games offer any difference in practice with a limit on the number of moves (without pawn move or capture)? It seems to me that your stated objections to the 50 move rule would equally apply when the game ends artifically because of time limit. Or am I missing something?

The players could agree to a draw. It's so easy for white not to lose. Losing on time isn't as artificial as the 50 move rule because losing on time is on you. You thought too long, so you flagged. 50 move rule is declaring a game a draw out of nowhere just because of the number of moves that went by. What's the significance of 50 moves?

Avatar of MARattigan
EndgameStudy wrote:

If the 50 move rule affects so few games anyway, what's wrong with scrapping it? So occasionally, once in a blue moon u have a game that lasts 6 hours. At least it's fair for both players.

It's not fair for a player who has no way to force a win to hang around for six hours while his opponent blunders randomly about.

Avatar of Brian-E
EndgameStudy schreef:
Brian-E wrote:

@EndgameStudy Does your latest recommendation of a time limit on games offer any difference in practice with a limit on the number of moves (without pawn move or capture)? It seems to me that your stated objections to the 50 move rule would equally apply when the game ends artifically because of time limit. Or am I missing something?

The players could agree to a draw. It's so easy for white not to lose. Losing on time isn't as artificial as the 50 move rule because losing on time is on you. You thought too long, so you flagged. 50 move rule is declaring a game a draw out of nowhere just because of the number of moves that went by. What's the significance of 50 moves?

We're not talking about losing on time. We're talking about your recommendation of stopping the game after 2 hours. What is the significance of 2 hours? What is the practical difference between stopping the game after 2 hours and stopping after 50 moves with no pawn move or capture?

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Brian-E wrote:
EndgameStudy schreef:
Brian-E wrote:

@EndgameStudy Does your latest recommendation of a time limit on games offer any difference in practice with a limit on the number of moves (without pawn move or capture)? It seems to me that your stated objections to the 50 move rule would equally apply when the game ends artifically because of time limit. Or am I missing something?

The players could agree to a draw. It's so easy for white not to lose. Losing on time isn't as artificial as the 50 move rule because losing on time is on you. You thought too long, so you flagged. 50 move rule is declaring a game a draw out of nowhere just because of the number of moves that went by. What's the significance of 50 moves?

We're not talking about losing on time. We're talking about your recommendation of stopping the game after 2 hours. What is the significance of 2 hours? What is the practical difference between stopping the game after 2 hours and stopping after 50 moves with no pawn move or capture?

Because there is no fixed time that 50 moves can be played. 50 move can be played very fast or very slow. Time if a fixed thing that says, no matter how many moves have been played the game must end. If 50 moves were played in 10 minutes, and they want to continue, what's wrong with giving everyone more time.

Avatar of Brian-E

Your objections to the 50 move rule apply just as well to a game which must stop after 2 hours. Or can you name a problem with the 50 move rule which doesn't apply to a maximum 2 hours game?

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
ZebraGang wrote:
EndgameStudy wrote:

If the 50 move rule affects so few games anyway, what's wrong with scrapping it? So occasionally, once in a blue moon u have a game that lasts 6 hours. At least it's fair for both players.

If it was a tournament game its not fair to the player who wants to claim the game a draw and the people waiting for the game to finish so they can play the next round. It can go on for days with your logic.

What if the player wants to claim the draw because he doesn't know how to defend the position accurately and is afraid of making a mistake. In games where it's an obvious draw, like queen vs queen, (except skewers..etc,) the players would just agree to a draw. It's not fair to ruin good games where good players actually want to play it out for 100+ moves, just so some stupid players can't keep moving their queens around randomly.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
Brian-E wrote:

Your objections to the 50 move rule apply just as well to a game which must stop after 2 hours. Or can you name a problem with the 50 move rule which doesn't apply to a maximum 2 hours game?

Yes I can. In this position:

Bd6 was white's 50th move. It took 20 minutes for white to force that position. White then takes the knight and mates black with 2 bishops in 4 more minutes. The game ends in 25 minutes, everyone's happy, even though a grand total of 70 moves have been played without captures or pawn moves.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

The point is it's not the number of moves that's the problem. It's the time factor that's the problem. So just say that all games must end in 2-3 hours...whatever. This way endgames that take more than 50 moves still could be played within a reasonable time.