So what is appropriate etiquette when it comes to offering draws?

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Argonaut13

royalbishop wrote:

Fear_ItseIf

I offer a draw whenever i get bored with the positon, I dont care if im winning or not. If im up enough material to finish it quickly i will though.

Right about now you must be getting a flood of challenges!

Yea I agree lol

NimzoRoy
royalbishop wrote:

I had mate in 2-3 moves and this guy Offers me a Draw. I started laughing then begin to move fast.

I never Offer a Draw! That is a sign of weakness saying you can not get the job done.

So you NEVER reach positions in which you've concluded you can't win - and your opponent has slight to zero winning chances or the position is at least a theoretical draw?

ZeldasCrown

In terms of this online chess business, I think as long as you're not spamming the other person with draw offers every turn, you're probably ok. That and don't offer a draw when you're clearly lost (like if they have a forced checkmate in x moves, or if you're down to your king and they have several other pieces). That's just rude and frankly kind of immature. 

As long as you're in some kind of reasonable position (like many of the ones suggested by others in this thread), the worst that will happen is that they won't accept your offer, and then you play on (and again, don't offer again immediately, wait until the position changes substantially, then if it's still drawish take it from there).

Irontiger
Stigmatisert wrote:
Irontiger wrote:
Stigmatisert wrote:

There are situations when you don't have to wonder whether it's a draw. For example when the moves have been repeated 3-folds. Like in this game I was white:

 

 




Drawn by 3-fold repetition.

Huh... Wouldn't e8=Q+ prove slightly more effective at some point ?...

 

OK, then. I remove the pawn in the diagram to make the example better.

Now: 1. Qa8+ Kh7 2. Qh1+ Kg8 3. Qa8+ Kh7 etc. Drawn by 3-fold repetition.

You should remove the rook too, otherwise there is 1.Qa8+ Kh7 2.Qh1+ Rg8 3.Re8# Tongue Out

(I know I'm being a jerk here, but this was really not a good example)

Bartleby73

actually, you still have to call the judge to declare it a draw in such a situation. Does not end automatically in OTB situations.

Well, i guess i went against etiquette and just offered a draw even though my opponent is a pawn up. I hope I won't lose all my respectability now.

rigamagician

Here's an example of a fortress where White has more material, but the position is a theoretical draw.  White should offer the draw.

NimzoRoy

It's a/k/a "The Impotent Pair" ie K+B+RP vs K when the Bishop doesn't control the queening square.

Bartleby73

that is a draw by definition. I hope I will never have to explain why.

TYR1S
Stigmatisert wrote:
Irontiger wrote:
Stigmatisert wrote:

There are situations when you don't have to wonder whether it's a draw. For example when the moves have been repeated 3-folds. Like in this game I was white:

 

 




Drawn by 3-fold repetition.

Huh... Wouldn't e8=Q+ prove slightly more effective at some point ?...

 

OK, then. I remove the pawn in the diagram to make the example better.

Now: 1. Qa8+ Kh7 2. Qh1+ Kg8 3. Qa8+ Kh7 etc. Drawn by 3-fold repetition.

Why  would you take a draw black is getting crushed....

Even if you give black the move he is still getting crushed after Qb4 white can either go after the queen with Qa8+ Qf8 Rd8 or Qd8+ Qf8 QxRa5.

Irontiger
Bartleby73 wrote:

Well, i guess i went against etiquette and just offered a draw even though my opponent is a pawn up. I hope I won't lose all my respectability now.

Boooh ! Throw tomatoes at him, everyone !

TYR1S

Opposite coloured bishop endings often lead to drawing stuations even if one player has an extra pawn. Bishop + King vs King + Rook is another draw provided the player with the bishop knows which corners to run between.

If I have an advantage I usually force my opponent to show he has the knowledge on how to draw the position. I just recently got a nice swindle in in a complex but drawish rook ending where I had an extra pawn my opponent played innaccurately immediately after I refused his draw offer.

My point being if there is still some play in a position there is a chance for the opponent to go wrong. Especially if its a game where you are at worst drawn there is nothing to lose from playing on. It is somewhat demoralising to be fighting for a draw at best. If you are clearly worse then take that draw and run. :p

SmyslovFan

There have been some excellent answers here, for instance by Zinsch, ViktorHNielsen and Rigamagician. 

The player with extra material has earned the right to play for the win, so the person with less material pretty much should just suffer in silence. If it's a draw, prove it. 

I'm currently playing an endgame in correspondence where my opponent has a slight space advantage but the material is even and there is absolutely no way for either side to make a break. I offered a draw several moves ago. I won't offer another one this game. 

In my opinion, he's acting peevish by continuing to shuffle wood, but that's his right. He knows I want the draw, he doesn't need to be reminded.

As an aside, I would hate to offer a draw in an endgame and then lose after my opponent declined the draw offer. It would show that I had misevaluated the position. The only exception would be if I was decisively ahead in material but low on time. 

Absolute_1
Bartleby73 wrote:

I have heard you are only supposed to offer a draw when you have an advantage. Is that right?

But then, why offer a draw if you think you have an advantage?

But I get it right that you are not supposed to offer draws when you have any kind of disadvantage? That part makes sense.

That happens only in GrandMasters games or world championships, it's part of psychological play to offer a draw when one have the advantage over the opponent to negatively affect their play or demotivate them for the next match. Like in the last wc match gelfand offered a draw to anand even his postion was better. Also the advantage should be slight, almost negligible.

rigamagician
SmyslovFan wrote:
As an aside, I would hate to offer a draw in an endgame and then lose after my opponent declined the draw offer. It would show that I had misevaluated the position.

I agree.  If you want to be taken seriously, it's probably better to avoid unjustifiable draw offers.  You come off looking like you don't know what you are doing.

Irontiger
Absolute_1 wrote:
Bartleby73 wrote:

I have heard you are only supposed to offer a draw when you have an advantage. Is that right?

But then, why offer a draw if you think you have an advantage?

But I get it right that you are not supposed to offer draws when you have any kind of disadvantage? That part makes sense.

That happens only in GrandMasters games or world championships, it's part of psychological play to offer a draw when one have the advantage over the opponent to negatively affect their play or demotivate them for the next match. Like in the last wc match gelfand offered a draw to anand even his postion was better. Also the advantage should be slight, almost negligible.

Hmmm... No.

The "psychological draw offer" occurs when the opponent has the advantage. Then accepting the draw forfeits all hopes to convert the slight advantage, but refusing it forces more or less inconsciously to prove that it was right to refuse it, which can lead to mistakes. In complicated positions it can also consume some time to decide whether to accept or not the draw to play 'safe' (imagine you evaluate the chances of outcome if the game is played on as : you win 50%, draw 10%, you lose 40% ; you might be tempted to take the draw).

Ziggyblitz

Against higher rated players I seldom offer a draw. Those guys are after the full point anyway. Also, I enjoy endgames, so it's often played down to the last pawn. It's a good way to learn endgames. (BTW I only play online games.)

Absolute_1
Irontiger wrote:
Absolute_1 wrote:
Bartleby73 wrote:

I have heard you are only supposed to offer a draw when you have an advantage. Is that right?

But then, why offer a draw if you think you have an advantage?

But I get it right that you are not supposed to offer draws when you have any kind of disadvantage? That part makes sense.

That happens only in GrandMasters games or world championships, it's part of psychological play to offer a draw when one have the advantage over the opponent to negatively affect their play or demotivate them for the next match. Like in the last wc match gelfand offered a draw to anand even his postion was better. Also the advantage should be slight, almost negligible.

Hmmm... No.

The "psychological draw offer" occurs when the opponent has the advantage. Then accepting the draw forfeits all hopes to convert the slight advantage, but refusing it forces more or less inconsciously to prove that it was right to refuse it, which can lead to mistakes. In complicated positions it can also consume some time to decide whether to accept or not the draw to play 'safe' (imagine you evaluate the chances of outcome if the game is played on as : you win 50%, draw 10%, you lose 40% ; you might be tempted to take the draw).

http://www.chess.com/article/view/anand-gelfand-psychology

SmyslovFan

That is another general rule: If a player is +100 rating points higher than you, let him or her offer the draw. I've had countless draw offers from players rated lower than me, and they just embarrassed themselves because the position was really lost. 

The higher rated player is playing for a win in most cases. If they do offer a draw in a complex position, be sure that they've just blundered unless the draw guarantees them a prize. Don't accept a draw unless you see no winning chances for yourself!

rigamagician

Queen for rook, knight and pawn is fairly close in terms of material.  Perhaps Anand should have waited for Gelfand to offer the draw, but Anand was confident he could draw, so it's not that rude I don't think.



zborg

Just offer a draw every other move, regardless of position, until you piss off your opponent, royally.

Entirely too many players on the site follow this rule of thumb.  Laughing