Stalemate needs to be abolished...

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Conflagration_Planet
chrisr2212 wrote:

i've never experienced it, but stalemating your opponent in a winning position must be tough. extra pieces do help win, but the end objective is checkmate, with stalemate being the danger to avoid.

it was drilled it into me to always watch out for possibly stalemating the opponent in a winning position, all the effort made to gain a decisive advantage could be lost in a flash

if in a losing endgame, stalemate is a saving grace, so i was instructed to watch carefully for it, i pulled off a few too

if you learn from your mistakes, stalemate is hardly an issue, but when you drag it up on the Internet .... crikey!!

I stalemated a dead won game once, many months ago, and about puked, but I still don't think they should abolish it.

nameno1had
blake78613 wrote:
nameno1had wrote:

I think it would be pointless to take away stalemate. It only gives a form of babying, that the OP claims is already being given. Instead of whining, learning how to look far enough ahead to avoid it would be the answer. If you really dominated your opponent, you should have easily been able to avoid this.

If you wanted to try to make certain rules to take stalemate away, only to help crown a champion, good luck. It would be difficult to expect players to prepare for that unique circumstance, but yet play as it is now otherwise. I realize most games are timed today, but they weren't always and aren't always. I play many untimed games. Untimed games need a way to deal with a tie, regardless of the type.

We could argue the meaning of the terminology, of draw and stalemate. We could argue whether they should be interchangeable terms, but I won't waste my time. If the implied differences between the terms checkmate and stalemate aren't already obvious, regardless of how it happens, then it would certainly be a waste of my time to try to convince you otherwise.

Not all draws are as a result of someone simply avoiding a loss. Both sides may have very well played outstanding, with "best play" resulting in an inevitable draw. Whether it is perpetual check,  3 fold repitition, 50 move rule, insufficient material, the game needs an out, incase one of these situations occur.

You aren't simply suggesting that the rule for stalemate be changed, but also the rule's requirement for a victory in a certain respect. Checkmate is required for a victory, unless you count someone's clock running out, or resigning. If you weren't savvy enough to checkmate them or force them to resign, you didn't truly beat them, you won on a technicality, that I am sure you'll take all day long. It is funny you'd take that, but won't give the technicality to someone you couldn't really beat either. That is hypocrisy in action, if I ever saw it.

I generally don't think much of the victories in short timed games, in which an opponent weasled out a win, due to his opponent running out of time, though he literally had been beaten otherwise. I am not demanding that rule be changed, especially considering the inevitable conclusion, if the game were to have continued. I say this from the wisdom that timed games need a logical conclusion when someone's timer runs out. The beauty of chess is that there are many strategies, complications and results. Otherwise it would be a boring, monotonous game.

I only have one more way of showing the hypocrisy in not thinking your opponent should be able to avoid losing, even if they can't win by an out right fight. If you found yourself in a fight, in which you had offensive capability at the begining, that you lost through the course of the fight, wouldn't you try to avoid losing the fight, resisting in any manner you had left, even if you couldn't really inflict any damage?

If you were a boxer in a match, realizing you couldn't knockout your opponent, you were questioning whether you could match your opponent's punching in the eyes of the judges, and didn't want to quit incase somehow your opponent made a mistake, tired, etc, wouldn't it make sense to fight not to lose, even if you weren't able to fight to win outright, if it were your only hope for a miracle? If you don't think so, your pride is so great, it is not only severely clouds your sense of sportsmanship and competition, but also your judgment in general.

Interesting that you should use a boxing analogy.  If the object of a boxing match is to knock some one out, why isn't it a draw if no one gets knocked out?

Winning is the object in boxing, as in chess, any way you can, within the rules of course. Sometimes it is a draw if no one gets knocked out boxing, just like in chess, it can be if there isn't a checkmate.

Can you imagine having to have three judges to decide who won a chess game or arguing Houdini's decision for who was ahead at the end, from a pure theory stand point.

Oy Vey, lets have stalemates too, ok?

waffllemaster
nameno1had wrote:

Can you imagine having to have three judges to decide who won a chess game or arguing Houdini's decision for who was ahead at the end, from a pure theory stand point.

Oy Vey, lets have stalemates too, ok?

It was called adjudications, and yes they used to exist!

TheGrobe

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

nameno1had
TheGrobe wrote:

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

 

I guess they'll start putting chain saws in the ring, so that your chess puzzles make more sense...

Monster_with_no_Name
TheGrobe wrote:

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

 

If we change the rules to my variant... (capture the king)
then black should lose that position because he would have to move the king down and whites king will capture it, ending the game.

If blacks king were stuck somewhere else... then it would be for the reason that he cant move and his clock will run out.


The reason: white could still win (because the kings can step into check, and the white king could still capture the black one if black were to place it adjacent to the white king)

dawgface420
TheGrobe wrote:

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

I am not emotionally invested in whether or not the Stalemate rule should stand, but I AM curious as to how black managed to get that bishop onto that particular square.

waffllemaster
dawgface420 wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

I am not emotionally invested in whether or not the Stalemate rule should stand, but I AM curious as to how black managed to get that bishop onto that particular square.

It doesn't have to be logical, it just has to be possible.



TheGrobe
Monster_with_no_Name wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

 

If we change the rules to my variant... (capture the king)
then black should lose that position because he would have to move the king down and whites king will capture it, ending the game.

If blacks king were stuck somewhere else... then it would be for the reason that he cant move and his clock will run out.


The reason: white could still win (because the kings can step into check, and the white king could still capture the black one if black were to place it adjacent to the white king)

Well now this seems pretty stilly, considering we award a draw in the case where one side runs out of time but the other side doesn't have mating material.

In this case, there's no way White can win with the lone king, so if we don't award them the draw if Black runs out of time we certainly shouldn't award them the win.

I suppose the draw on timeout rule would also need to be revisisted?

Monster_with_no_Name
TheGrobe wrote:
Monster_with_no_Name wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:

At least that boxing comparison would make a little sense:

Black to move -- who wins?

 

If we change the rules to my variant... (capture the king)
then black should lose that position because he would have to move the king down and whites king will capture it, ending the game.

If blacks king were stuck somewhere else... then it would be for the reason that he cant move and his clock will run out.


The reason: white could still win (because the kings can step into check, and the white king could still capture the black one if black were to place it adjacent to the white king)

Well now this seems pretty stilly, considering we award a draw in the case where one side runs out of time but the other side doesn't have mating material.

In this case, there's no way White can win with the lone king, so if we don't award them the draw if Black runs out of time we certainly shouldn't award them the win.

I suppose the draw on timeout rule would also need to be revisisted?

Man you are thick. re-read all my post, esp the parts in blue.
Then go and sit in the naughty corner for 1 hour.

TheGrobe

I think maybe you're the one being a little thick here.

Let me clarify: If stalemate is a win for the side who stalemated their opponent, then the draw on timeout rule needs to be modified to consider "any series of legal moves leading to stalemate" instead of "any series of legal moves leading to checkmate".

I'll be the one to take the high road here and stop short of being a patronizing prick.

Kens_Mom
TheGrobe wrote:

I think maybe you're the one being a little thick here.

 

Let me clarify: If stalemate is a win for the side who stalemated their opponent, then the draw on timeout rule needs to be modified to consider "any series of legal moves leading to stalemate" instead of "any series of legal moves leading to checkmate".

 

I'll be the one to take the high road here and stop short of being a patronizing prick.

Actually, it should be "Any series of legal moves leading to a king capture" with the assumption that moving into check is legal.  Basically, a KvK endgame would be sufficient material for either side to win.

IOliveira

Kens_Mom is right. If we accept NamelessMonster's suggestion, than King vs King is not a definitive draw. One king can capture the other.

Whenever the position occured the players would make really fast moves until one's clock run out, or perharps one of them blunders and let his king be captured by the other king. That would be interesting to watch.

blake78613
TheGrobe wrote:

I think maybe you're the one being a little thick here.

 

Let me clarify: If stalemate is a win for the side who stalemated their opponent, then the draw on timeout rule needs to be modified to consider "any series of legal moves leading to stalemate" instead of "any series of legal moves leading to checkmate".

 

I'll be the one to take the high road here and stop short of being a patronizing prick.

If the definition of checkmate was amended to include stalemate, then the draw on timeout rule could be left intact.

Yereslov

It's hard not to be a patronizing prick when you are dealing with a whiny child.

Yereslov

Either learn how to mate or quit chess.

Avoiding stalemate is basic knowledge.

Even amateurs know how to avoid it.

Kens_Mom
II-Oliveira wrote:

Kens_Mom is right. If we accept NamelessMonster's suggestion, than King vs King is not a definitive draw. One king can capture the other.

Whenever the position occured the players would make really fast moves until one's clock run out, or perharps one of them blunders and let his king be captured by the other king. That would be interesting to watch.

Assuming that it's standard time control (>60min per player), it's probably more likely that a draw would be determined by 50 move rule or 3 fold repetition before either player's time runs out.  However, this doesn't make the situation any less ridiculous.

Monster_with_no_Name
Yereslov wrote:

Either learn how to mate or quit chess.

Avoiding stalemate is basic knowledge.

Even amateurs know how to avoid it.

You my friend have no idea what we are talking about.
This isnt only about 5 queens vs king.

Getting rid of stalemate has many deep, subtle and interesting (probably not your strong suit) ramifications.

Seeing as you have a 1200 rating, I can see why your so convinced though that amateurs can avoid it.

Here_Is_Plenty

The only time I can see stalemate being a factor, other than in blitz or after a long tiring 4 hour match, is when one player has a queen that he brilliantly offers in repeated moves as he has no king moves.  It does not have to be the result of oversight of a novice type, it could genuinely be after one or two sacrifices by the defending player.  I know its unlikely but I have seen it done.  Such proper use of resources should not be punished, stalemate has its place.

Kens_Mom
Monster_with_no_Name wrote:

Getting rid of stalemate has many deep, subtle and interesting (probably not your strong suit) ramifications.

Exactly, so why try to bring about such an upheaval that would ultimately change a completely functional game into something completely different?  Isn't simply creating your own variant a much better and practical alternative than trying to alter something already established?  I'm repeating myself verbatim from the other thread, but if you truly want to get rid of the stalemate rule, creating a variant would be the right way of showing the merits of abolishing stalemate to the "nay-sayers" that think it would ruin chess.

If abolishing stalemate is truly an improvement to the rules, the no-stalemate variant would naturally become more popular than the current chess and eventually replace it as the mainstream chess.  I'm sure that's how the current rules were established centuries ago.