I reached 2nd round of mind games tournament being an untitled player. People who concerned about cheating, FYI fide thinking to take online rating seriously by merging with on-board coz it has sophisticated techs behind online chess games for cheaters.
starting money based tournaments here
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Martin_Stahl wrote:
Darth_Algar wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Darth_Algar wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
So prizes can't be based on number of entrants or their entry fee i.e. the entry fee must be admin cost based and not used to fund the prize fund.
Right. What the OP proposes is entry fees funding the prize purse.
And most OTB tourneys in the US have the prizes funded by entry fees. I'm still not seeing how moving something like that to online suddenly makes it gambling. Can you point to specific statutes that make that the case (US based that is).
rdecredico already did above. The pertinant part is this: "All prizes and awards offered to winning participants are established and made known to the participants in advance of the game or contest and their value is not determined by the number of participants or the amount of any fees paid by those participants."
Legally, a prize purse that is funded by entry fees would constitute gambling, and gambling online is illegal in the United States.
The link rdecredico posted was the same one I looked at. The thing is that an online event does not suddenly change the definition of wagering which requires chance to be materially involved. Chess is mostly a game of skill and any chance involved is ancillary.
Thus, chess tourneys don't meet the definition of gambling provided in that link. Based on the fact that OTB tourneys have the same stipulations/circumstances as online ones would theoretically have and they aren't considered gambling (in current law and in jurisdictions I'm aware of -- though I'm sure there somewhere it is) then I don't see how moving them online changes that.
Moving something online doesn't suddenly make it gambling. The crux here is that the idea the thread starter proposed (entry fees funding the prize purse, rather than the purse being assured regardless of entry fees) would be gambling under that statute. Gambling isn't necessarily illegal here in the physical world (depending on jurisdiction). Gambling online, however, is (in the United States). It isn't that something suddenly becomes gambling by taking it online, it's that the gambling itself becomes illegal by taking it online.
Nov 5, 2014
0
#44
Darth_Algar wrote:
Moving something online doesn't suddenly make it gambling. The crux here is that the idea the thread starter proposed (entry fees funding the prize purse, rather than the purse being assured regardless of entry fees) would be gambling under that statute. Gambling isn't necessarily illegal here in the physical world (depending on jurisdiction). Gambling online, however, is (in the United States). It isn't that something suddenly becomes gambling by taking it online, it's that the gambling itself becomes illegal by taking it online.
Based on that argument most OTB chess tournaments in the US would be considered gambling. For an event to be considered gambling, wagering has to take place. The PDF I linked to explains it pretty well and these things are listed in the other link to the statute. You need three things to be considered gambling:
- Consideration: Participants have to put up something of value, in this case, entry fees.
- Chance: The element of chance has to be a material factor in the probability of winning. In other words, factors outside the participant's control influence outcomes.
- Prize: Chance to win prizes
Most chess tournaments in the US, excluding things like free and invitational events mostly, have both Consideration and Prize but they don't materially rely on chance. Chess is skill based and doesn't meet the critera.
Gambling in person is a local, state by state issue. The federal government has say in online matters with gambling (from my understanding) due its ability to regulate interstate commerce. So, moving gambling which is legal in one state to an online process would be illegal (not sure about online if only residents of a legal state were allowed to compete, though that is beside the point).
However, the fact of using entry fees to fund prizes doesn't suddenly make something gambling. The verbiage you are paraphrasing is actually a subsection under the following (shortened for ease of referrence)
(I) Bet or Wager
-- (E) - does not include
---- (ix) participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game or educational game or contest ...
------ (I) All prizes and awards offered
That only deals with that particular subsection and doesn't apply to something like a chess tournament. Unless you are claiming chess is an educational game/contest for the purpose of that statute.
Again, if you don't meet the gambling definition by meeting the requirements of consideration, chance, and prizes, then it isn't gambling. All the other subsections don't matter if all three of those definitions are not met. Or at least, that is my layman's reading and understanding.
I have not claimed that OTB tournements aren't gambling, so I'm not sure what your point is there.
If you think our lawmakers are going to understand the notion that chess doesn't involve chance or luck then you may have more faith in them that I do. Keep in mind that some of these folks are dumb enough to filibuster bills they themself propose.
Yes, gambling is a jurisdictional issue. And yes, the federal government regulate interstate commerce. That's rather peripheral to the discussion.
Anywhos.....
I wouldn't call it gambling, but if sites started to make a lot of money from chess tournaments, then certain people might try to use the gambling angle to make it difficult for them.
Of course there is chance in chess, especially in a tournament, although over the long run the better players will win more often.
Anyway, the biggest problem as pointed out many times is cheating.
how do you cheat on a game of chess without anyone knowing? also if this so called cheater existed. can't it be recorded. therefore the cheater is removed from tournament and loses the 10$ he applied with?.. I like the idea of paid tournament. hope it can be done in future!
johnxdug wrote:
how do you cheat on a game of chess without anyone knowing?
If you have a way to reliably catch cheaters then please contact any one of the chess sites out there that people pay. Chess.com but also FIDE, and sites like ICC and Playchess. Not only will you certainly be monetarily rewarded for your innovative solution, but you'll make online play much more enjoyable for all chess players all over the world!
Enthusiast14 wrote:
After mind games online tournament hosted here in chess.com, i suppose many organizers/individuals will be interested to host money based tournaments here. Like $10 entry fee and first place winner will get the amount summed up by those entry fees. It's quite look like millionaire chess tournament held recently where entry fee was $1000.
It's as easy as you can imagine, so anyone interested and what's pros and cons??
The engine users are lining up...besides its illegal.
IN short, I'm pretty sure you all know that chess tournaments for money aren't gambling under the common law or statute.
Now, what would be gambling, is third party bettors wagering on the chess games, like if I bet you $100 that Anand will win game one against Carlsen in the WCC later this month, ya know, brah?
You're right, probably "reliably" wasn't a good word.
He made it sound like a perfect solution.
As for catching blatant cheaters, sure. But I can't even imagine a way to begin to detect lesser cheating. For example, lets say they had a 2nd computer and they went so far as to cover up all the lines and suggested moves and only looked at the engine evaluation the whole game. That's a big edge, but I can't imagine detecting it. Not to mention using an engine or tablebase at only 1 or 2 key positions.
Nov 5, 2014
0
#52
Darth_Algar wrote:
I have not claimed that OTB tournements aren't gambling, so I'm not sure what your point is there.
My point is that you must be considering most OTB chess tournaments in the US as gambling. If they were considered such (and they aren't, at least in most jurisdictions) then moving to online with the same formats would still be gambling. That is the whole crux of what I'm saying.
Since OTB tourneys with entry fees covering the prize funds aren't being shut down all over they place they must not be gambling (and based on the definitions of gambling are not). Thus, moving the same format online, also wouldn't be gambling (for most people/jurisdictions).
Not that it will likely happen, as has been mentioned, due to cheating concerns.
Click your mouse, lose your house.
Reb wrote:
ICC already tried real money events and they caught even famous GMs cheating !! LOL Any such event will be full of cheats so why bother ?
And sandbaggers.
Reb wrote:
ICC already tried real money events and they caught even famous GMs cheating !!
Who was this now?
Nov 6, 2014
0
#56
Reb wrote:
ICC already tried real money events and they caught even famous GMs cheating !! LOL Any such event will be full of cheats so why bother ?
mebelalalana wrote:
"And now, ladies and gentlemen, the winner of the 2019 World ONLINE Chess Championship Tournament is... Yelena Dembo, for the 4th year in a row!"
jk but seriously that's how it would be lol
Maybe you weren't reading carefully, or maybe you are both just trolling... Anyway, I repeat what I stated already dozens times:
1) Yes, cheating is a problem, we all agree.
2) Therefore yes, potential stealing of prizes by cheaters is huge problem.
3) So, dealing with cheating would be #1 priority.
4) Important: *Only players with clear identity and long honest online chess reputation would be allowed to participate.* No anonyms, no aliases, no johnnys-come-lately and of course no caught cheats. Once a shadow of doubt appears, the default stance is: Not allowed. Cheater Yelena Dembo is excluded for life.
5) After getting through the #4) scrutiny, every participant's past games would be tested for computer contamination. Again, like in #4), any borderline result, inadeqate or insufficient data: Not allowed.
6) After the tournament test again. Any doubt = no prize. No dispute possible.
@redecredo hmm yes in mind games tournaments my mouse slipped some times, that's a point 
Polar_Bear wrote:
The OP and me have meant money for participants, not bets.
This simple sentence was lost in the arguemnt but is 100% correct. You have to pay to play. Not bet on who is going to win
Polar_Bear wrote:
4) Important: *Only players with clear identity and long honest online chess reputation would be allowed to participate.* No anonyms, no aliases, no johnnys-come-lately and of course no caught cheats. Once a shadow of doubt appears, the default stance is: Not allowed. Cheater Yelena Dembo is excluded for life.
5) After getting through the #4) scrutiny, every participant's past games would be tested for computer contamination. Again, like in #4), any borderline result, inadeqate or insufficient data: Not allowed.
6) After the tournament test again. Any doubt = no prize. No dispute possible.
So, basically an invitational that once is over and the TD doesn't like the win can withhold the prize?
Seems like a lot of bother.
I have organized an onine tournament here with players who were known to each other off line. It would be realtively easy to have collected entry fees and distributed prize money completely separate from chess.com. OTB tournaments seems to address most of the concerns.
Let's wait for an unknown player to beat an IM in the Mind games tournament and see what happens then...