Study openings or endgames? - Chess Forums - Page 4

bradct

Sep 12, 2018

0

#61

DamonevicSmithlov wrote:

I know a few really strong players and all of them say the same. Endgames, tactics, pawn structures. You don't need to memorize openings (if you're under master level), just basic opening principles. If you learn pawn structures well you'll be able to find good plans in ANY opening, whether you've ever played them before because it's the PAWN STRUCTURE that will guide you. That's why you can throw any GM or IM or FM into any opening they don't even play and they'll just have a feeling of the proper plan from the pawn structures they encounter.

And you'll get enough opening theory exposure just playing in otb tournaments so you'll get to feel comfortable in your openings anyway without becoming obsessed over the latest lines.

I have learned how important understanding how to manage certain pawn structures os when playing different positions. It is one part of the game that has a certain permanence about it.

kindaspongey

Sep 12, 2018

0

#62

FredPhillips wrote: "need a match with opening specialist vs endgame specialist. lets settle this."

StinkingHyena wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

DeirdreSkye wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

What about a place in the competition for someone with this sort of attitude?

"... The game might be divided into three parts, i.e.:- 1. The opening. 2. The middle-game. 3. The end-game. There is one thing you must strive for, to be equally efficient in the three parts. Whether you are a strong or a weak player, you should try to be of equal strength in the three parts. ..." - Capablanca

… Nonsense like "do whatever you want" can no longer be considered even remotely serious. … they say the convenient " what ever you do it's the same" ...

Does that represent your reading of the Capablanca quote? Do players have a logical reason to try to satisfy the DeirdreSkye notion of remotely serious?

"In order to improve your game, you must study the endgame before everything else. For whereas the endings can be studied and mastered by themselves, the middle game and opening must be studied in relation to the end game". - Capablanca

Is that supposed to be an answer to one of my questions in post #84?

Lonteon

Sep 13, 2018

0

#63

SmyslovFan wrote:

Nope. I'm gonna focus on the original question, which was for beginners, not club players.

Study what interests you. Play a few games, then take a look at what sorts of mistakes you're making and study those.

The Step method, which is quite popular in Europe, is an excellent first resource for novices.

Thank you, both for being reasonable in this crazy discussion and for giving me a good answer!

StinkingHyena

Sep 13, 2018

0

#64

kindaspongey wrote:

FredPhillips wrote: "need a match with opening specialist vs endgame specialist. lets settle this."

StinkingHyena wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

DeirdreSkye wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

What about a place in the competition for someone with this sort of attitude?

"... The game might be divided into three parts, i.e.:- 1. The opening. 2. The middle-game. 3. The end-game. There is one thing you must strive for, to be equally efficient in the three parts. Whether you are a strong or a weak player, you should try to be of equal strength in the three parts. ..." - Capablanca

… Nonsense like "do whatever you want" can no longer be considered even remotely serious. … they say the convenient " what ever you do it's the same" ...

Does that represent your reading of the Capablanca quote? Do players have a logical reason to try to satisfy the DeirdreSkye notion of remotely serious?

"In order to improve your game, you must study the endgame before everything else. For whereas the endings can be studied and mastered by themselves, the middle game and opening must be studied in relation to the end game". - Capablanca

Is that supposed to be an answer to one of my questions in post #84?

No, but I am humbly suggesting quoting someone isn't the best argument.

FredPhillips

Sep 13, 2018

0

#65

2 strong players should train 2 neophytes for a month and let them battle ,with both knowing how the pieces move and just openings or endgames.and a set of principals relating to there study.

FredPhillips

Sep 13, 2018

0

#66

this could be a eye opening experience and a new finding in the way we study chess. i remember some old computers who would analyse backwards from endgame to beginning.

varelse1

Sep 13, 2018

0

#67

If you are new, study openings.

Not really a lot. But you should be getting a playable middlegame 90% of the time.

Once you are there, study other things.

I love endgame myself. I have embarrassed players 100 or 200 points higher than me in the endgame. But endgames only go so far.

kindaspongey

Sep 13, 2018

0

#68

StinkingHyena wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

FredPhillips wrote: "need a match with opening specialist vs endgame specialist. lets settle this."

StinkingHyena wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

DeirdreSkye wrote:

kindaspongey wrote:

What about a place in the competition for someone with this sort of attitude?

"... The game might be divided into three parts, i.e.:- 1. The opening. 2. The middle-game. 3. The end-game. There is one thing you must strive for, to be equally efficient in the three parts. Whether you are a strong or a weak player, you should try to be of equal strength in the three parts. ..." - Capablanca

… Nonsense like "do whatever you want" can no longer be considered even remotely serious. … they say the convenient " what ever you do it's the same" ...

Does that represent your reading of the Capablanca quote? Do players have a logical reason to try to satisfy the DeirdreSkye notion of remotely serious?

"In order to improve your game, you must study the endgame before everything else. For whereas the endings can be studied and mastered by themselves, the middle game and opening must be studied in relation to the end game". - Capablanca

Is that supposed to be an answer to one of my questions in post #84?

No, but I am humbly suggesting quoting someone isn't the best argument.

What do you think I was using the quote to argue? FredPhillips posted about a hypothetical competition between two extremes, and I tried to call attention to another possibility - really a whole range of possibilities - between the two extremes.

kramopolis

Sep 13, 2018

0

#69

How does this maxim change for beginner or club players?

What constitutes endgame study?

kindaspongey

Sep 13, 2018

0

#70

I think the Silman book presents a plausible approach for learning endgames in stages as one improves.

http://theweekinchess.com/john-watson-reviews/theres-an-end-to-it-all

FredPhillips

Sep 13, 2018

0

#71

how would you handle a bishop vs knight with pawns on both sides position .Or just pawns on one side with same pieces. . which piece would you rather have.. knowing drawing lines or fortresses,like fortnite in a way, definitely k plus pawn endings,knowing the Philidoe and Luceana position is a must for a beginner.Basic Piece endings .Q plus minor endings etc.triangulation ,there's a good one. how to mate with a bishop and knight.the list goes on.......

kindaspongey

Sep 13, 2018

0

#72

FredPhillips wrote:

… knowing the Philidoe and Luceana position is a must for a beginner. ...

I am about 1500 and neither has ever come up in any game that I have ever played. Silman discusses them in his 1400-1599 section.

https://www.silmanjamespress.com/shop/chess/silmans-complete-endgame-course/

dannyhume

Sep 13, 2018

0

#73

There are a lot of KRP v KR endgames below the 1600 on chess tempo.

DjonniDerevnja

Sep 13, 2018

0

#74

DeirdreSkye wrote:

Thanks a lot for a very good post. They all say that endgametraining is the most important, and you explains WHY it is so in a very good way. I have an additional idea : I think that if you are good at endgame it can help you playing the middlegame setting up positions for a good endgame, because you have a feeling and ideas for what positions to reach. Any opinions on that idea?

FredPhillips

Sep 14, 2018

0

#75

bingo ,play long games of your best opening ,and see what patterns happen in the endgame. taking notes i believe is another great way to help pattern recognition. or even just diaagrams of positions that you can look at say before a tournament ,and like a photo ,youll end up saying ,oh yeah i remember that time....kinda idea.probably would work for positions that you needed help in. like flash cards.....hmmmmmmm maybe im onto something here.........anybody wanna try it? could have opening ,middle and endgame with evaluation on back ie white wins,black wins.

torrubirubi

Sep 14, 2018

0

#76

I agree 100% with the guy wrote on post 99. I mean, if I would take a time machine I would find a copy of Tarrasch‘s Das Schachspiel and a copy of Chernev‘s Logical Chess and go slowly through them.

After this I would get a copy of Awerbach‘s Bauernendspiele and a copy of Neishtadt Improve Your Chess Tactics. And try to find a good chess coach to help me with analysis of my own games.

But there is no time machine. My chess training was always chaotic, far away from consequent or efficient.

When I teach beginners (only one hour per week) I explain the rules, opening principles , stress the need of fair play and let them play games. Sometimes I will let then play against a weak engine and comment all moves. And I show websites where they can learn tactics, basic endgames and basic openings. That’s it. Endgames? Only very basic stuff, like mate with R and K vs K, or K and P vs K. I once had a short conversation with Yussupov, and he said he liked my approach of let the people play games.

I think that you can kill somebody’s joy on the game by letting him learn exclusively endgames.

But if you have the discipline and if you like this endgame-first approach, do it!

torrubirubi

Sep 14, 2018

0

#77

I hired today a coach to help me to improve my game. He is a GM, a chess author and a very kind person. I asked him what I should focus right now before I begin with the lessons, and he said: tactics (to improve calculation). He suggested Improve Your Chess Tactics by Neishtadt. I have already this book and it is really good to train calculation. Now I will focus on this book and Dvoretsky‘s Endgame Manual (although I will keep reviewing the repertoires that I learn already). I am curious to see how much I will improve in let’s say one year of chess lessons.
And I will begin to play in a chess club. Finally!:Perhaps I can get some strong players there to help me with the analysis of my games.

torrubirubi

Sep 14, 2018

0

#78

IMBacon wrote:

torrubirubi wrote:

I agree 100% with the guy wrote on post 99. I mean, if I would take a time machine I would find a copy of Tarrasch‘s Das Schachspiel and a copy of Chernev‘s Logical Chess and go slowly through them.

After this I would get a copy of Awerbach‘s Bauernendspiele and a copy of Neishtadt Improve Your Chess Tactics. And try to find a good chess coach to help me with analysis of my own games.

But there is no time machine. My chess training was always chaotic, far away from consequent or efficient.

When I teach beginners (only one hour per week) I explain the rules, opening principles , stress the need of fair play and let them play games. Sometimes I will let then play against a weak engine and comment all moves. And I show websites where they can learn tactics, basic endgames and basic openings. That’s it. Endgames? Only very basic stuff, like mate with R and K vs K, or K and P vs K. I once had a short conversation with Yussupov, and he said he liked my approach of let the people play games.

I think that you can kill somebody’s joy on the game by letting him learn exclusively endgames.

But if you have the discipline and if you like this endgame-first approach, do it!

We sound similar in the way we teach. I teach Opening Principles, and basic endgames to beginners. I will get the occasional beginner that plays online, and will start with the usual: "I play online, and enjoy highly tactical/aggressive openings. Can you teach me to get better?"

I always tell them no. I cannot make you a better chess player. What i can do is give you the tools that you will have to use to improve. Their eyes glaze over, ignore what i just said, and will continue with something like: "I want to play some tricky openings so i can crush my friends at school, and or the cub"

We will play some games, and they always go the same way. Out comes the queen...out comes the bishop...sac the bishop on f2/f7...blunder a piece...blunder another piece...get mated. I then have to listen to how their "tactics" and "aggressive openings" always work.

I have to explain to them that hanging material is not playing "aggressively" I try to get across the importance of Opening Principles, and i get in return: "That's boring..."

Those types of students don't last long, as im not going to waste my time, or theirs.

It’s is funny to see quite a lot of weak players who learned some tactics are eager to give a lot of material in combinations that don’t work. I don’t know what is worst, such „aggressive“ players or people who don’t know that combinations exist.

I mean, I am reluctant to give even a knight for three pawns if this is all I will get from a combination. I see people rated 1300 in Daily Chess giving two minor pieces for two or three pawns just to harass a little bit my well protected king.

zborg

Sep 15, 2018

0

#79

This topic has been covered extensively (and with humor), in many, many, discussion threads over the past 5 years. Post #51 is the thread cited below is a decent summary of what anyone (from beginner up to USCF A Class) needs to know about openings, and their study, writ large. Enjoy --

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/opening-theory-and-vegetarianism-are-both-overated

zborg

Sep 16, 2018

0

#80

Thank you. Since few people bother to read deeply on the inter-web, we are left with constant repetition of the same silliness and trolling. Sometimes it's good for a few laughs, most times it's just another form of online addiction. People are (essentially) playing with a slot machine at a casino, and they are hooked on it.

Except when we actually play chess online, which we all greatly enjoy.