studying Endgame first, or Openings.

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Avatar of kindaspongey
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote: "... What are the odds [that IMPfren and another FIDE certified trainer] are wrong and [troy7915 is] right?"
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:

What about the possibility that the truth is somewhere in between and somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner?

      You can't seriously expect that a guy that understands nothing about chess , is qualified to know what a beginner needs. ...

Do you have a specific sentence where "a guy that understands nothing about chess" claimed to know what a beginner needs?

Yes , look at Troy's and your posts.

Do you have an estimate of the number of days that are going to go by without you producing a specific sentence where I claimed to know what a beginner needs?

   Do you agree with what IMPfren says?

If yes , there is nothing to discuss. If not , you have your quote!

So, thus far, you have no quote that you wish to produce. Since you now consider it appropriate to ask, I inform you that I do not claim to know what a beginner needs. About 36 minutes ago, I brought up the "possibility" that the truth somewhat depends on the cirumstances of the particular beginner

I didn't ask that. ...

If a person does not claim to know what a beginner needs, is it reasonable to expect that person to agree (or disagree) with the statement of someone else about what a beginner needs?

Avatar of kindaspongey

At least 27 minutes so far without a produced sentence. I guess it is going to be awhile. By the way, when did this thread get moved to Chess Mentor?

Avatar of troy7915
DeirdreSkye wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

 It doesn’t prove anything other than my capacity to play, not that what I say does or does not apply to others. For that to happen, there must be someone who actually did that profound study, like a student.

 If you want to call what I said ‘nonsense’, be my guest. But labeling it doesn’t refute it. 

 

 To 152.

I am not really trying to refute anything.  IMPfren in one of his posts said that beginners need only opening principles.

He is a FIDE certified trainer and has created several titled players. I have met another FIDE certified trainer that surprisingly claims exactly the same. He too has created several titled players. 

     So 2 guys , that are IMs(meaning they have been trained as players for many years)  and FIDE certified trainers (meaning they have been trained by better trainers in training) clearly disagree with you.

       Now a question that will seriously  test your intelligence:

What are the odds they are wrong and you are right?

    

 

 

  Authority means nothing. Spongey was right: it depends on the person playing chess. 

Avatar of troy7915
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
troy7915 wrote:

... it takes quite some time to pick the lines one feels comfortable with, getting at least a general feel for them. Then comes a deepening study of those lines, which ...

Perhaps we agree that, for many brains, it might be sensible to let a lot of time go by between the following of the general-feel advice and attention to the subsequent sentence.

  Should that happen, though, in the meantime, one is not ready to play the game, yet.

Is there a reason to only play when considered "ready" by troy7915?

 Ready when all the lines are understood.

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... Authority means nothing. ..." - troy7915

Avatar of troy7915

I disagree. First study in detail, then play.

 

 Oops, whete’d It go? I was responding to the post containing Short’s advice.

Avatar of kindaspongey

Sorry, here is the (Davies) quote again:

"The way I suggest you study this book is to play through the main games once, relatively quickly, and then start playing the variation in actual games. Playing an opening in real games is of vital importance - without this kind of live practice it is impossible to get a 'feel' for the kind of game it leads to. There is time enough later for involvement with the details, after playing your games it is good to look up the line." - GM Nigel Davies (2005)

Avatar of troy7915

Davies, right, not Short.

Avatar of kindaspongey

I hope that you will forgive me for tossing out one more quote. I like it, but I do not often encounter a situation when it seems like it might be appropriate.

"... I think people tend to be afraid of the main lines. They think: ... sure, I'm going to take up (say) 5 Bg5 against the Semi-Slav, once I've got time and learned it properly. ... My advice is - don't bother. The more you learn anyway, the more you'll recognize how little you know. ... 5 Bg5 is a good move - get it on the board, get ready to fight, and see what happens.

Sure, there will come a time, whether on move two or move twenty, when your knowledge of theory runs out and you have to decide what to do on your own. ... sometimes you will leave theory first, sometimes your opponent. Nothing will stop this happening. It happens in every well-contested GM game at some point, usually a very significant point. This is a part of the game: an important part, something you have to get better at. ... to improve you have to challenge yourself; ..." - IM John Cox (2006)

Avatar of troy7915

I’d say, always take the main lines! Along with the sidelines as possible responses, but from your point of view, always the most complicated lines. 

  It doesn’t matter if you or your opponent deviates, you learn the biggest number of ideas from studying the main lines, which then could, perhaps be applied even if one player deviates. Even if not, it gives you an idea what to look for, how to think.

And in some openings, like KID, what is sideline now has been main line a decade ago, so there’s no way to avoid studying a lot of lines. Ruy Lopez, for instance, shouldn’t be avoided with a...Scotch! Always the most complicated openings, not just lines.

Avatar of kindaspongey

"Alekhine advised beginners not to play the Spanish game. We also recommend you get some experience first by playing relatively simple openings - the Scotch and Italian games - and only then move on to the Spanish one." - Journey to the Chess Kingdom by Yuri Averbakh and Mikhail Beilin

"... I want to talk about how to build an opening repertoire that matches your rating goals in chess. ... If your goals in chess are relatively modest, (i.e- no higher than 2200), you can play many less conventional openings and get away with it. ... [If your goals are to get up to 1800, pick] openings based on enjoyment. ... You can play stuff that’s completely unsound because the large majority of sub 2000 players won’t be able to take advantage of your dubious opening choices. ..." - IM Greg Shahade (2012)

http://www.uschess.org/content/view/11634/658

Avatar of troy7915

I was talking of a player who wants the highest of the highest, not one who limits themselves to 2200 or 1800 bar...

Avatar of troy7915

The point was, why set limitations, be that in Elo points or actual chess strength?

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... There is no doubt in my mind that if you really want to test the Sicilian then you have to play the main lines of the Open Sicilian. The problem is that there are just so many of them ... and keeping up with developments in all of them is a substantial task. ... as you become older, with other demands on your time (family, job, etc.) then it becomes more and more difficult to keep up with everything. At this stage it may make sense to reduce your theoretical overhead by adopting one of the 'lesser' lines against the Sicilian: 2 c3, or the Closed Sicilian, or lines with Bb5. ..." - GM John Nunn in part of a 2005 book where he discussed a 1994 game in which he had played 2 c3.

Avatar of troy7915

Well, it takes sacrifices to do the right thing, and one can make ends meet. The problems appear when one wants more than the bare necessities and obtain mastery in chess. Like they want also to go on dates, hook up, go to the movies, escape in little vacations and so on, start a family ( being insecure in themselves), have kids then providing for them, all that.

 But if one is clear about their objective, they can study the hardest lines in the greatest detail. True, the same lines offer a new understanding each time they’re being looked at, which is why this is a permanent ‘job’. 

  So the problem may be a lack of clarity about one’s future. 

Avatar of troy7915

By the way, if one plays the Sicilian as Black, learning 2. c3, or the Moscow for that matter—but not necessarily Rossolimo—are inevitable, just not with the white pieces. 

  After all, speaking against adopting the Alapin as White, its main idea, while logical and constructive, fails terribly—in itself—which is obtaining the ideal center.

It is the creation of a dreamy idealist, which a logical pragmatic can refute it. And in fact, having failed in its main concept, the only way to gain an advantage is to offer a pawn sacrifice, sometimes even two ( three doesn’t count, as then White will regain at least one back), in order to get a developmental advantage, which is the main line for many decades now.

 It’s just a matter of knowing what to play with what colors and when certain sidelines are avoidable and when they are not.

Avatar of kindaspongey
troy7915 wrote:

... The problems appear when one wants more than the bare necessities and obtain mastery in chess. ...

So there is no problem for one who does not want to obtain the troy7915 notion of mastery in chess?

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Avatar of HorribleTomato
 
Start with opening principles, then endgames, then openings.
Or else you may do something like this:
Diagram 1. I'm going to develop my king!
Diagram 2. Heading into battle!
I hope you won't though.

 

Avatar of HorribleTomato

But I HOPE you won't.

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