the Polgar experiment actually disproves the hard work theory

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Elubas
AdamovYuri wrote:

lots of nonsense going on. even math and computers nonsense involved. simply sad Polgars father was a loser and used his daughters as the only mean to achieve anything in life..............!!!

Although the usage must have felt good for the daughters, who are now famous and renowned.

Elubas

"I think the biggest obstacle is that the correct kind of work is completely unappealing to them."

Yes, sometimes (perhaps most of the time?) the most efficient way to improve is not the most intellectually satisfying. I think a clever thing to do is to try to make the efficient way also the intellectually satisfying way, but there will be limitations to that. It's like trying to be allowed to play a video game for a school project. Even if you succeed, the way you'll have to play the game for it to be largely educational will be so different that it might not have the fun you generally find in video games anymore. If you just play the game normally you might happen to learn a few things just by chance, but probably not that many things.

Mandy711

The Lazlo parents are ideal parents. Parents are the best teachers. School teachers are far second. I hope to follow the example of the Lazlos. Not necessary majoring in chess.

Mandy711
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Elubas

"Teaching is just another salary paying job for most"

I get your point, but come on, this is a pretty strong claim, that teachers who are truly passionate wouldn't appreciate.

Mandy711

Most not all. I'm sorry this statement offends some dedicated teachers. Even among political leaders, there are still few who sincerely wants to serve the nation and citizens. If I get negative remarks, it's alright. But I won't edit or delete anything.

Elubas

Well yeah, the point of my comment is to comment, not to infringe your right of free speech. I just personally don't see how you can know that much about people and their motives.

Mandy711

@Elubas I see your point. I judged based on my personal experience. I knew less than a hundred teachers so I made a reckless generalization. My apologies for that.

Elubas

Oh, I think we have enough of them. Plenty.

ADaleSmith

Everyone can't be a "Bobby Fisher". The rest of us need to do a little work. Ponder this point, I wager if chess runs through your blood stream, The "work" isnt work at all. More like relaxing while you do something you love to do. If the "work" is too boring, chances are you just dont like playing chess. People who are great guitar players, LOVE playing the guitar. They don't mind practicing. Here's a secret.......when they started, they SUCKED at music.  Regardless of the skill level, chess players play chess. 

joyntjezebel
ADaleSmith wrote:

Everyone can't be a "Bobby Fisher". The rest of us need to do a little work. 

 

 

Bobby Fisher worked obsessively on chess from an early age.  So to be anything like as good as Fisher, you need to do a massive amount of work.

Blldg1983

Have any of the Polgar sisters ever expressed regrets at missing out on a "normal" childhood or education? 

SmyslovFan

Put another way, what is your evidence that the Polgar sisters are in some way worse off because of their parents' choices? 

Elubas
SmyslovFan wrote:

Put another way, what is your evidence that the Polgar sisters are in some way worse off because of their parents' choices? 

That's a pretty strong ends justify the means kind of approach, though, isn't it? I mean, if I was forced into something at an early age, and just so happened to succeed, does it really make them better parents than if I didn't succeed? Either way it's the same pushiness. I don't know, my mind isn't made up on the whole thing, this is just something I think about. And I'm not claiming I know exactly what was going on -- the Polgar sisters claimed, for example, that they sort of agreed with the direction they were heading as kids, or so I heard. But then again, maybe they agreed because they were conditioned to, early in their life. I hope not.

Put another way, Laszlo's parenting might have resulted in something good, but maybe parents shouldn't try to replicate it, because there is such a high chance of something not so good coming from it. Even if the kid does develop some talent, it can get stressful to feel like you have to reach a certain level of output (e.g., rating, titles) to feel meaningful.

Elubas

Ok, to be fair, you were just replying to the comment that talked about whether or not the sisters were well off. Sorry about that.

Elubas

Yeah but, again, if the person just turned out to be a mediocre piano player, their time would be considered flat out wasted, with the parents to blame.

Elubas

"Father Polgar would have stopped his 'pushing' if the daughters would not have made fast progress in chess"

Well a lot depends on this part.

zadignose
Gil-Gandel wrote:

The Polgar experiment neither proves nor disproves the hard work theory. The sample size is far too small; also, we know nothing about similarly obsessed fathers and industrious daughters who never amounted to a hill of beans.

Which is the basic problem with the hard work theory - to back it up, you need to show that, say, the majority of piano students who put in 10,000 hours become concert pianists. The most I've seen actually demonstrated is that the majority of concert pianists were students who put in 10,000 hours. That proves something quite different: "if you want to make it, you must put the hours in", and not "if you put the hours in, you will make it".

Perfectly expressed.

I've heard it said, and it's true, and perhaps even a kind of inspiration, that one thing all successful novelists have in common is that they never gave up. This, of course, is something they have in common with all of the unsuccessful novelists who also never gave up.

Blldg1983
power_2_the_people wrote:
Doesn’t that make it sound like success is something outside of an individual’s control?

I don’t mean to go that far. But I do think that we vastly underestimate the extent to which success happens because of things the individual has nothing to do with. Outliers opens, for example, by examining why a hugely disproportionate number of professional hockey and soccer players are born in January, February and March. I’m not going to spoil things for you by giving you the answer. But the point is that very best hockey players are people who are talented and work hard but who also benefit from the weird and largely unexamined and peculiar ways in which their world is organized. I actually have a lot of fun with birthdates in Outliers. Did you know that there’s a magic year to be born if you want to be a software entrepreneur? And another magic year to be born if you want to be really rich? In fact, one nine year stretch turns out to have produced more Outliers than any other period in history. It’s remarkable how many patterns you can find in the lives of successful people, when you look closely.'' ''

Outliers sounds like an interesting read.  Perhaps the story of "the class the stars fell on" is also relevant.  The West Point Class of 1915 produced more general officers than any other.  The graduates were perfectly positioned to gain their experience as junior officers during the First World War and then they peaked in their careers when the U.S. Army needed move generals than ever before.  

 

Elubas
caruanovich wrote:

Nonsense. Astrology is nonsense. Number magic is nonsense.

I don't think they're saying that it's magic. Maybe there are certain yearly events that happen to occur on those months that are hockey related, and one thing leads to another. Could be anything. And even if the parents have an irrational belief about people born in those months, that irrational belief will still potentially affect their parenting, which can create a disparity between people born in one month versus another.