Too many guns in the US?

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selfevident1
neneko wrote: Markle wrote:

 

 Too many guns eh well we all know criminals will still be able to get weapons no matter what and crime will still continue. Also we know that the guy that enters your home at 3Am in the morning uninvited is not there to say hello.  So you may be willing to wait however long it takes the police to arrive if they even do while in the meantime he does whatever he pleases to you and your family but i'm not. If more of these wastes of society were blown back out into the steet by the man who is trying to protect his family with a gun then maybe this crap would end. The way it stands now the criminals have more rights then you do. So  live in your fantasy world and keep believing that taking guns away is the right answer but don't come crying when your family is threatened by some jackass with a gun and you can't protect them because some politician living in a gated community took away your right to own a gun.


 This is a great example of where it went wrong. The right to bear arms wasn't put there to protect the people from each other. The responsibility to uphold and enforce the law lies with the state. That's one of the benefits with belonging to a community, that within the community there are laws upheld by the state so that the people won't have to protect themselves against each other. The right to bear arms was put there to prevent the government from trying to get too much power over the people. It's when people start thinking that the government is always right and shouldn't be questioned and that the right to bear arms is there to protect them against other people, that's when things go wrong.


Well, that may be a nice by-product of the principle, but the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States sums it up pretty nicely: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."  The Founders of The U.S. saw the people as the real government and not some great tyrannical beast---"We the people...." The keeping and bearing of arms by the people was, therefore, more like the Swiss examples used herein, where a military body could easily be created by the arms bearing citizens of a given state---to protect the people from invaders.

 

Further, though it is a nice thought to consider that self-protection is left up to the "government," it is physically impossible for the government to protect an individual of physical peril. Nor is it really the role of a government, beyond invasion of outside forces. The individual is responsible for his/her own protection, i.e., the intruder into one's home. The individual always has the right of self-protection.

 

Jason


neneko
JasonVaughn wrote:neneko wrote:Markle wrote:

 

 Too many guns eh well we all know criminals will still be able to get weapons no matter what and crime will still continue. Also we know that the guy that enters your home at 3Am in the morning uninvited is not there to say hello.  So you may be willing to wait however long it takes the police to arrive if they even do while in the meantime he does whatever he pleases to you and your family but i'm not. If more of these wastes of society were blown back out into the steet by the man who is trying to protect his family with a gun then maybe this crap would end. The way it stands now the criminals have more rights then you do. So  live in your fantasy world and keep believing that taking guns away is the right answer but don't come crying when your family is threatened by some jackass with a gun and you can't protect them because some politician living in a gated community took away your right to own a gun.


 This is a great example of where it went wrong. The right to bear arms wasn't put there to protect the people from each other. The responsibility to uphold and enforce the law lies with the state. That's one of the benefits with belonging to a community, that within the community there are laws upheld by the state so that the people won't have to protect themselves against each other. The right to bear arms was put there to prevent the government from trying to get too much power over the people. It's when people start thinking that the government is always right and shouldn't be questioned and that the right to bear arms is there to protect them against other people, that's when things go wrong.


Well, that may be a nice by-product of the principle, but the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States sums it up pretty nicely: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."  The Founders of The U.S. saw the people as the real government and not some great tyrannical beast---"We the people...." The keeping and bearing of arms by the people was, therefore, more like the Swiss examples used herein, where a military body could easily be created by the arms bearing citizens of a given state---to protect the people from invaders.

 

Further, though it is a nice thought to consider that self-protection is left up to the "government," it is physically impossible for the government to protect an individual of physical peril. Nor is it really the role of a government, beyond invasion of outside forces. The individual is responsible for his/her own protection, i.e., the intruder into one's home. The individual always has the right of self-protection.

 

Jason


 Yes that quote sums it up pretty nicely. The people before the state. The people had the right to bear arms to protect themselves from outside forces but also from their own government.

 

The rest of your post is really confusing. Are you actually claiming that the state is not responsible to uphold the law but the people themselves? One of the benefits you get from belonging to a community is that you're protected by the laws and those laws are upheld by the government. A 'community' where the law is upheld by the people themselves is called anarchy.

 

If someone breaks into a store at night and robs it and the owner watch the security tape the next day and see who it is. Should he go smash the guys kneecaps in and take enough money from him to replace what the guy stole/destroyed or should he go to the police? In a state where the people upheld the law by themselves the first option would be the obvious one. Do you think that would end well for the store owner if he did that in America?

 

One of the states main function is the law. Protection from outside threats are way down the list.


smsjr723

wow... don't even want to get started on the wild assumptions made by the original poster.  Also trying to keep the knee-jerk american pric side of me from just lashing out against the french.

but just to state simply. pick one topic..and have one reasoning for the arguement for that topic.  in your brief paragraph you condemned america, guns in general, men in general, made a blanket statement on all gun crimes, lumping them together with these random massacre type incidents and then took a swipe at the constitution.

 

America has plenty of gun laws.  I think that people who own guns legally are probably some of the most law abiding people there are.  I think there is room for stricter enforcement of screening/limits on guns purchased etc.  But there's by no means an epidemic of violence that would necessitate altering the constitution.  

in terms of guarding against these random acts of violence, there's more of a case to be made for educating and making available access to mental health services, or awareness action to help people of this sort.   you quite simply cannot predict or prevent someone who's batsh*t crazy from doing something ...batshit crazy.  It's tragic and horrible, but little can be done in a rational sense to stop these occurences.

 

...and besides.  if you take away all of America's guns.  who's going to rescue france the next time it's invaded???(sorry..couldn't help myself) 


calvinhobbesliker
neneko wrote: JasonVaughn wrote:neneko wrote:Markle wrote:

 

 Too many guns eh well we all know criminals will still be able to get weapons no matter what and crime will still continue. Also we know that the guy that enters your home at 3Am in the morning uninvited is not there to say hello.  So you may be willing to wait however long it takes the police to arrive if they even do while in the meantime he does whatever he pleases to you and your family but i'm not. If more of these wastes of society were blown back out into the steet by the man who is trying to protect his family with a gun then maybe this crap would end. The way it stands now the criminals have more rights then you do. So  live in your fantasy world and keep believing that taking guns away is the right answer but don't come crying when your family is threatened by some jackass with a gun and you can't protect them because some politician living in a gated community took away your right to own a gun.


 This is a great example of where it went wrong. The right to bear arms wasn't put there to protect the people from each other. The responsibility to uphold and enforce the law lies with the state. That's one of the benefits with belonging to a community, that within the community there are laws upheld by the state so that the people won't have to protect themselves against each other. The right to bear arms was put there to prevent the government from trying to get too much power over the people. It's when people start thinking that the government is always right and shouldn't be questioned and that the right to bear arms is there to protect them against other people, that's when things go wrong.


Well, that may be a nice by-product of the principle, but the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States sums it up pretty nicely: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."  The Founders of The U.S. saw the people as the real government and not some great tyrannical beast---"We the people...." The keeping and bearing of arms by the people was, therefore, more like the Swiss examples used herein, where a military body could easily be created by the arms bearing citizens of a given state---to protect the people from invaders.

 

Further, though it is a nice thought to consider that self-protection is left up to the "government," it is physically impossible for the government to protect an individual of physical peril. Nor is it really the role of a government, beyond invasion of outside forces. The individual is responsible for his/her own protection, i.e., the intruder into one's home. The individual always has the right of self-protection.

 

Jason


 Yes that quote sums it up pretty nicely. The people before the state. The people had the right to bear arms to protect themselves from outside forces but also from their own government.

 

The rest of your post is really confusing. Are you actually claiming that the state is not responsible to uphold the law but the people themselves? One of the benefits you get from belonging to a community is that you're protected by the laws and those laws are upheld by the government. A 'community' where the law is upheld by the people themselves is called anarchy.

 

If someone breaks into a store at night and robs it and the owner watch the security tape the next day and see who it is. Should he go smash the guys kneecaps in and take enough money from him to replace what the guy stole/destroyed or should he go to the police? In a state where the people upheld the law by themselves the first option would be the obvious one. Do you think that would end well for the store owner if he did that in America?

 

One of the states main function is the law. Protection from outside threats are way down the list.


he's claiming that the state can't possibly protest every single civilian from criminals. that's why the people have the right to bear arms: to protect themselves. the problem is not the gun, but the people who use them. That's why you need a licence to own a gun: to make sure you don't use it for crime. Guns should only be used for self-defense


neneko
calvinhobbesliker wrote:neneko wrote:JasonVaughn wrote:neneko wrote:Markle wrote:

 

 Too many guns eh well we all know criminals will still be able to get weapons no matter what and crime will still continue. Also we know that the guy that enters your home at 3Am in the morning uninvited is not there to say hello.  So you may be willing to wait however long it takes the police to arrive if they even do while in the meantime he does whatever he pleases to you and your family but i'm not. If more of these wastes of society were blown back out into the steet by the man who is trying to protect his family with a gun then maybe this crap would end. The way it stands now the criminals have more rights then you do. So  live in your fantasy world and keep believing that taking guns away is the right answer but don't come crying when your family is threatened by some jackass with a gun and you can't protect them because some politician living in a gated community took away your right to own a gun.


 This is a great example of where it went wrong. The right to bear arms wasn't put there to protect the people from each other. The responsibility to uphold and enforce the law lies with the state. That's one of the benefits with belonging to a community, that within the community there are laws upheld by the state so that the people won't have to protect themselves against each other. The right to bear arms was put there to prevent the government from trying to get too much power over the people. It's when people start thinking that the government is always right and shouldn't be questioned and that the right to bear arms is there to protect them against other people, that's when things go wrong.


Well, that may be a nice by-product of the principle, but the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States sums it up pretty nicely: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."  The Founders of The U.S. saw the people as the real government and not some great tyrannical beast---"We the people...." The keeping and bearing of arms by the people was, therefore, more like the Swiss examples used herein, where a military body could easily be created by the arms bearing citizens of a given state---to protect the people from invaders.

 

Further, though it is a nice thought to consider that self-protection is left up to the "government," it is physically impossible for the government to protect an individual of physical peril. Nor is it really the role of a government, beyond invasion of outside forces. The individual is responsible for his/her own protection, i.e., the intruder into one's home. The individual always has the right of self-protection.

 

Jason


 Yes that quote sums it up pretty nicely. The people before the state. The people had the right to bear arms to protect themselves from outside forces but also from their own government.

 

The rest of your post is really confusing. Are you actually claiming that the state is not responsible to uphold the law but the people themselves? One of the benefits you get from belonging to a community is that you're protected by the laws and those laws are upheld by the government. A 'community' where the law is upheld by the people themselves is called anarchy.

 

If someone breaks into a store at night and robs it and the owner watch the security tape the next day and see who it is. Should he go smash the guys kneecaps in and take enough money from him to replace what the guy stole/destroyed or should he go to the police? In a state where the people upheld the law by themselves the first option would be the obvious one. Do you think that would end well for the store owner if he did that in America?

 

One of the states main function is the law. Protection from outside threats are way down the list.


he's claiming that the state can't possibly protest every single civilian from criminals. that's why the people have the right to bear arms: to protect themselves. the problem is not the gun, but the people who use them. That's why you need a licence to own a gun: to make sure you don't use it for crime. Guns should only be used for self-defense


 Just as I stated in my first post. The right to bear arms was not put there to protect people from eachother. It was put there to make sure the people remained free. That is actually a great reason for everyone to bear arms. If you motivate the right to bear arms with that the arms should be used to take the laws into your own hands when the police isn't around then the whole argument for it falls flat. There are plenty of examples of countries where the common man doesn't own any arms and where the crime rate is lower than in America.

 

The right to bear arms was put there to protect freedom not for people to take the law into their own hands. That is exactly where I'm saying it all went wrong. 


erik
politics are perfect for the Open Discussion group! :)
Unbeliever-inactive
Not necessarily true Calvinhobbesliker.  The American government has many holes in their gun policies.  For example, did you know that anyone over the age of 21 can walk into a gun show and buy any legal weapon there without a background check, or a license to own a gun?   Guns should only be used for self-defense, true, but it is irresponsible people who obtain guns through legal loopholes or completely bypass the legal system in obtaining their weapons that constitute the majority of legal convictions involving firearm usage.
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