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Avatar of Morfizera
njzuraw13 wrote:

Knowing they're the better player, seeing that the entire game you were losing, just to come back from a blunder someone of their skill wouldn't normally make that is satisfying? As with any sport, winning isn't always good, having your opponents only lose because they made a mistake they shouldn't have isn't good. In sports one should always strive, not to win, but to be better than before. Cheap victories, born from a blunder, are not victories at all, but a flimsy win, a point in your name, meaningless because it was not earned.

In the same way one can lose a game, but not actually lose overall. The first classical tournament I played, I was worried I would be horrifically beaten and would lose because of my impatience, instead, in the first game of the tournament I was paired with the person I play against the most at my club, a player at a much higher skill level than me, in this game, for the first 20 or so moves, I played near-flawlessly, I had the advantage towards the late-middlegame. All of this was thrown away on 1 singular move, I blundered a piece, and, of course, he found it, being down a piece, I went on to lose. In this game, I technically lost, my opponent got the point, but it wasn't a defeat, it was a great game, and proved I could play high-level classical chess, even as impacient as I am. This was not a loss for him either, he both won, and played a great game, the truest of victories.

And a player like Nahil Sarin pulling victories from lost positions is not the same, he doesn't win because his opponent hangs a backrank in 3 or a queen in 1.

 

It can be argued that the blunder happened because of the pressure that was put on by the opponent so if you're saying that the blunder was beneath the player you're taking merit away from the opponent that did something to put you in a position where you blundered, whether he outprepped you, put you under time pressure (yes, it happens in classical as well), or made you think and calculate so many lines in previous moves that you got exhausted and overlook a simple move. 

And sorry but it was a defeat, you might've been able to extract positive things out of it, which is great and as it should be. It might've been a great game and you can say you both won something out of the game, but the actual game you lost. Absolutely no shame in that, though.

 

That being said, this discussion makes no sense. You're comparing different sports. Almost like comparing singles tennis to doubles tennis. Or volleyball to beach volleyball. They're similar, but they're different. Classical is different from blitz, which is different from bullet and it's a matter of personal taste. I, for one, like all of them. Although I find it very hard to play longer time formats online.

Avatar of njzuraw13
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
 

  The Classical championship is more of a team sport,  that requires financial and political backing,  and depends solely on memory and prep.  

 

l did not just read that

 

Its what Anna Cramlings GM mother said,  and I agree with her.  Read her wikipedia article.   ITs very political,   and there are alot of resources that go into helping a player prep.  Its why Russians called Dubov a traitor for helping Magnus in the last world Champs.  Its why Russia has dominated for so many years,  the full power of their government helps them.

 

I'm not disputing the fact you need a decent amount of money to be able to hire a team of strong GMs to prep a bunch of lines for you, but saying that it "depends solely on memory and prep"  is complete nonsense.

 

 


Thats exactly what Fischer said, word for word.     When players like Capablanca,  Fischer,  Wesley So,  Hikaru,  say chess is really just all theory and will probably be dead in 80 years,   that is what they mean.  When people say they are playing for the "correct"  or "accurate" moves they are pretty much admitting this.  Like saying the perfect game leads to a draw.   Its just simply not sporting because Human errors are what make a game sporting.   Without that we might as well be robots and computers.    Thats why i like blitz so much,  I never considered chess to be a sport until I learned you can play with a clock.

 

I'd like to see a link to that quote "word for word" from Fischer. He did say you need a strong memory, but to say that the WCC depends solely on that is absurdly ludicrous. And even if he said that, which I doubt, it's a known fact that he was as much a lunatic as he was a chess genius. And you'd have to take the context that he was paranoid and didn't trust anyone to help him with his prep (possibly one of the reasons he ran from Karpov) while the whole SU was teamed-up to beat him. But he still managed to outplay Spassky, Petrosian and other strong masters even after being "outprepped" by them and losing the "memory battle", thus going into middlegames with inferior positions.

 

People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible.

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is ridiculously preposterous.

No offense, but it seems you don't know what "solely" means.

 

i'm not going to go searching for links bud.  Its his most famous interview.  He is in his bedroom i think an old guy with a beard.  Hikaru even played the interview on his twitch stream in one of his videos.  Its very well known that fischer resented and hated chess in the end and said it was all memory and theory prep and creativity was down on the list.  He said computer engines ruined the sport.

I didn't read the rest of your thread,  because you probably think you are arguing with me,  when you are arguing with what many GM's have said whether you believe it or not.

But it is my opinion that classical chess will die long before speed chess ever does.  As is the case on this very website.

So because a GM said it, it's correct? Not on any evidence or argument, just that a great player said it. 

Avatar of Morfizera
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
 

  The Classical championship is more of a team sport,  that requires financial and political backing,  and depends solely on memory and prep.  

 

l did not just read that

 

Its what Anna Cramlings GM mother said,  and I agree with her.  Read her wikipedia article.   ITs very political,   and there are alot of resources that go into helping a player prep.  Its why Russians called Dubov a traitor for helping Magnus in the last world Champs.  Its why Russia has dominated for so many years,  the full power of their government helps them.

 

I'm not disputing the fact you need a decent amount of money to be able to hire a team of strong GMs to prep a bunch of lines for you, but saying that it "depends solely on memory and prep"  is complete nonsense.

 

 


Thats exactly what Fischer said, word for word.     When players like Capablanca,  Fischer,  Wesley So,  Hikaru,  say chess is really just all theory and will probably be dead in 80 years,   that is what they mean.  When people say they are playing for the "correct"  or "accurate" moves they are pretty much admitting this.  Like saying the perfect game leads to a draw.   Its just simply not sporting because Human errors are what make a game sporting.   Without that we might as well be robots and computers.    Thats why i like blitz so much,  I never considered chess to be a sport until I learned you can play with a clock.

 

I'd like to see a link to that quote "word for word" from Fischer. He did say you need a strong memory, but to say that the WCC depends solely on that is absurdly ludicrous. And even if he said that, which I doubt, it's a known fact that he was as much a lunatic as he was a chess genius. And you'd have to take the context that he was paranoid and didn't trust anyone to help him with his prep (possibly one of the reasons he ran from Karpov) while the whole SU was teamed-up to beat him. But he still managed to outplay Spassky, Petrosian and other strong masters even after being "outprepped" by them and losing the "memory battle", thus going into middlegames with inferior positions.

 

People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible.

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is ridiculously preposterous.

No offense, but it seems you don't know what "solely" means.

 

i'm not going to go searching for links bud.  Its his most famous interview.  He is in his bedroom i think an old guy with a beard.  Hikaru even played the interview on his twitch stream in one of his videos.  Its very well known that fischer resented and hated chess in the end and said it was all memory and theory prep and creativity was down on the list.  He said computer engines ruined the sport.

I didn't read the rest of your thread,  because you probably think you are arguing with me,  when you are arguing with what many GM's have said whether you believe it or not.

But it is my opinion that classical chess will die long before speed chess ever does.  As is the case on this very website.

I don't think I'm arguing with anyone. I'm simply demonstrating how farcical your statement was. It's fine you don't have to go searching for links when you don't have them. Any logic or evidence would suffice. 

Now you told the OP "I don't think you're being honest with yourself" and here you are saying that you did not read the rest of the post, coincidently right where I start explaining with logic, evidence, facts, and real life examples (not with empty quotes attributed to GMs but that so far have not been backed up)  how comically nonsensical your affirmation was. Are you sure you're being honest with yourself?  Lol what a classic "didn't read it" ...yea right... yet you read the next one and even thumbs up, and also read and wrote longer posts than that to the OP... ok sure whatever you gotta say to avoid facing the reality that you said something foolish and are not ready to admit it yet. If you have to try and convince yourself and this forum you didn't read it just to make yourself feel better, by all means it's alright you do what you gotta do buddy I don't judge. But I do want to let you know  there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind in face of logic and evidence, in fact, it's quite healthy. And even if you don't agree it's always important to keep an open mind and at the very least look at information that goes contrary to our beliefs, which is why I asked you for the quote "word for word" you claimed to have about the wcc depending solely on memory and prep, because I couldn't find it.  Although it is important to note that just because a GM said something about chess, it doesn't make it automatically true. So it should be taken with a grain of salt especially if said GM is a known madman who got even crazier as he got older.

But since you did thumbs up a couple of other posts of mine, it looks like some of my thinking and logic appeals and makes sense to you, so I humbly do recommend the reading of the rest of my post you didn't read, it takes less time than it took you to read this one right here, and who knows, perhaps next time you can even ask Hikaru on his stream what he thinks of my reasoning. I would honestly really love to hear his insights on what I just said in that post.

Avatar of chaotikitat

Also because you love quotes

on one of the botez streams

”blitz doesn’t help you with classical”

not related to the conversation much but just wanted to pop it in there 

Avatar of njzuraw13
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
 

  The Classical championship is more of a team sport,  that requires financial and political backing,  and depends solely on memory and prep.  

 

l did not just read that

 

Its what Anna Cramlings GM mother said,  and I agree with her.  Read her wikipedia article.   ITs very political,   and there are alot of resources that go into helping a player prep.  Its why Russians called Dubov a traitor for helping Magnus in the last world Champs.  Its why Russia has dominated for so many years,  the full power of their government helps them.

 

I'm not disputing the fact you need a decent amount of money to be able to hire a team of strong GMs to prep a bunch of lines for you, but saying that it "depends solely on memory and prep"  is complete nonsense.

 

 


Thats exactly what Fischer said, word for word.     When players like Capablanca,  Fischer,  Wesley So,  Hikaru,  say chess is really just all theory and will probably be dead in 80 years,   that is what they mean.  When people say they are playing for the "correct"  or "accurate" moves they are pretty much admitting this.  Like saying the perfect game leads to a draw.   Its just simply not sporting because Human errors are what make a game sporting.   Without that we might as well be robots and computers.    Thats why i like blitz so much,  I never considered chess to be a sport until I learned you can play with a clock.

 

I'd like to see a link to that quote "word for word" from Fischer. He did say you need a strong memory, but to say that the WCC depends solely on that is absurdly ludicrous. And even if he said that, which I doubt, it's a known fact that he was as much a lunatic as he was a chess genius. And you'd have to take the context that he was paranoid and didn't trust anyone to help him with his prep (possibly one of the reasons he ran from Karpov) while the whole SU was teamed-up to beat him. But he still managed to outplay Spassky, Petrosian and other strong masters even after being "outprepped" by them and losing the "memory battle", thus going into middlegames with inferior positions.

 

People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible.

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is ridiculously preposterous.

No offense, but it seems you don't know what "solely" means.

 

i'm not going to go searching for links bud.  Its his most famous interview.  He is in his bedroom i think an old guy with a beard.  Hikaru even played the interview on his twitch stream in one of his videos.  Its very well known that fischer resented and hated chess in the end and said it was all memory and theory prep and creativity was down on the list.  He said computer engines ruined the sport.

I didn't read the rest of your thread,  because you probably think you are arguing with me,  when you are arguing with what many GM's have said whether you believe it or not.

But it is my opinion that classical chess will die long before speed chess ever does.  As is the case on this very website.

I don't think I'm arguing with anyone. I'm simply demonstrating how farcical your statement was. It's fine you don't have to go searching for links when you don't have them. Any logic or evidence would suffice. 

Now you told the OP "I don't think you're being honest with yourself" and here you are saying that you did not read the rest of the post, coincidently right where I start explaining with logic, evidence, facts, and real life examples (not with empty quotes attributed to GMs but that so far have not been backed up)  how comically nonsensical your affirmation was. Are you sure you're being honest with yourself?  Lol what a classic "didn't read it" ...yea right... yet you read the next one and even thumbs up, and also read and wrote longer posts than that to the OP... ok sure whatever you gotta say to avoid facing the reality that you said something foolish and are not ready to admit it yet. If you have to try and convince yourself and this forum you didn't read it just to make yourself feel better, by all means it's alright you do what you gotta do buddy I don't judge. But I do want to let you know  there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind in face of logic and evidence, in fact, it's quite healthy. And even if you don't agree it's always important to keep an open mind and at the very least look at information that goes contrary to our beliefs, which is why I asked you for the quote "word for word" you claimed to have about the wcc depending solely on memory and prep, because I couldn't find it.  Although it is important to note that just because a GM said something about chess, it doesn't make it automatically true. So it should be taken with a grain of salt especially if said GM is a known madman who got even crazier as he got older.

But since you did thumbs up a couple of other posts of mine, it looks like some of my thinking and logic appeals and makes sense to you, so I humbly do recommend the reading of the rest of my post you didn't read, it takes less time than it took you to read this one right here, and who knows, perhaps next time you can even ask Hikaru on his stream what he thinks of my reasoning. I would honestly really love to hear his insights on what I just said in that post.

 

Did I say argue?  If I did its just another word for debating and nothing wrong with doing so.    My friend,  I hate to say it,  but you are embarrassing yourself.  It is well known and documented that is what Fischer has said.   Maybe ask somebody lol.   

 

My friend,  he said he plays classical which is torture.   I'm simply saying if it is torture why torture yourself?   I think he is listening to people like you who claim that is the only real chess worthy of playing.  Thats nonsense.    Even if you don't believe those GM's have made the statements I've attributed to them,  would you agree that they mostly play bullet on this website?   Do you think they are playing it because it hurts their careers and is not real chess?    I'm trying to get across to you guys that this is a competitive sport,  not a math equation.  If you all you want to do is memorize engine moves why not just play with a computer?  Do whatever you like best, to each his own,  but I would not suggest people "torture" themselves because you will just frustrate them out of the game altogether.

 

Way to mischaracterize what I said, I specifically said classical isn't torture. 

And, as I've previously stated, I like classical because I think it's better, that opinion was formed without outside influence

Avatar of njzuraw13
CooloutAC wrote:
njzuraw13 wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
 

  The Classical championship is more of a team sport,  that requires financial and political backing,  and depends solely on memory and prep.  

 

l did not just read that

 

Its what Anna Cramlings GM mother said,  and I agree with her.  Read her wikipedia article.   ITs very political,   and there are alot of resources that go into helping a player prep.  Its why Russians called Dubov a traitor for helping Magnus in the last world Champs.  Its why Russia has dominated for so many years,  the full power of their government helps them.

 

I'm not disputing the fact you need a decent amount of money to be able to hire a team of strong GMs to prep a bunch of lines for you, but saying that it "depends solely on memory and prep"  is complete nonsense.

 

 


Thats exactly what Fischer said, word for word.     When players like Capablanca,  Fischer,  Wesley So,  Hikaru,  say chess is really just all theory and will probably be dead in 80 years,   that is what they mean.  When people say they are playing for the "correct"  or "accurate" moves they are pretty much admitting this.  Like saying the perfect game leads to a draw.   Its just simply not sporting because Human errors are what make a game sporting.   Without that we might as well be robots and computers.    Thats why i like blitz so much,  I never considered chess to be a sport until I learned you can play with a clock.

 

I'd like to see a link to that quote "word for word" from Fischer. He did say you need a strong memory, but to say that the WCC depends solely on that is absurdly ludicrous. And even if he said that, which I doubt, it's a known fact that he was as much a lunatic as he was a chess genius. And you'd have to take the context that he was paranoid and didn't trust anyone to help him with his prep (possibly one of the reasons he ran from Karpov) while the whole SU was teamed-up to beat him. But he still managed to outplay Spassky, Petrosian and other strong masters even after being "outprepped" by them and losing the "memory battle", thus going into middlegames with inferior positions.

 

People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible.

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is ridiculously preposterous.

No offense, but it seems you don't know what "solely" means.

 

i'm not going to go searching for links bud.  Its his most famous interview.  He is in his bedroom i think an old guy with a beard.  Hikaru even played the interview on his twitch stream in one of his videos.  Its very well known that fischer resented and hated chess in the end and said it was all memory and theory prep and creativity was down on the list.  He said computer engines ruined the sport.

I didn't read the rest of your thread,  because you probably think you are arguing with me,  when you are arguing with what many GM's have said whether you believe it or not.

But it is my opinion that classical chess will die long before speed chess ever does.  As is the case on this very website.

I don't think I'm arguing with anyone. I'm simply demonstrating how farcical your statement was. It's fine you don't have to go searching for links when you don't have them. Any logic or evidence would suffice. 

Now you told the OP "I don't think you're being honest with yourself" and here you are saying that you did not read the rest of the post, coincidently right where I start explaining with logic, evidence, facts, and real life examples (not with empty quotes attributed to GMs but that so far have not been backed up)  how comically nonsensical your affirmation was. Are you sure you're being honest with yourself?  Lol what a classic "didn't read it" ...yea right... yet you read the next one and even thumbs up, and also read and wrote longer posts than that to the OP... ok sure whatever you gotta say to avoid facing the reality that you said something foolish and are not ready to admit it yet. If you have to try and convince yourself and this forum you didn't read it just to make yourself feel better, by all means it's alright you do what you gotta do buddy I don't judge. But I do want to let you know  there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind in face of logic and evidence, in fact, it's quite healthy. And even if you don't agree it's always important to keep an open mind and at the very least look at information that goes contrary to our beliefs, which is why I asked you for the quote "word for word" you claimed to have about the wcc depending solely on memory and prep, because I couldn't find it.  Although it is important to note that just because a GM said something about chess, it doesn't make it automatically true. So it should be taken with a grain of salt especially if said GM is a known madman who got even crazier as he got older.

But since you did thumbs up a couple of other posts of mine, it looks like some of my thinking and logic appeals and makes sense to you, so I humbly do recommend the reading of the rest of my post you didn't read, it takes less time than it took you to read this one right here, and who knows, perhaps next time you can even ask Hikaru on his stream what he thinks of my reasoning. I would honestly really love to hear his insights on what I just said in that post.

 

Did I say argue?  If I did its just another word for debating and nothing wrong with doing so.    My friend,  I hate to say it,  but you are embarrassing yourself.  It is well known and documented that is what Fischer has said.   Maybe ask somebody lol.   

 

My friend,  he said he plays classical which is torture.   I'm simply saying if it is torture why torture yourself?   I think he is listening to people like you who claim that is the only real chess worthy of playing.  Thats nonsense.    Even if you don't believe those GM's have made the statements I've attributed to them,  would you agree that they mostly play bullet on this website?   Do you think they are playing it because it hurts their careers and is not real chess?    I'm trying to get across to you guys that this is a competitive sport,  not a math equation.  If you all you want to do is memorize engine moves why not just play with a computer?  Do whatever you like best, to each his own,  but I would not suggest people "torture" themselves because you will just frustrate them out of the game altogether.

 

Way to mischaracterize what I said, I specifically said classical isn't torture. 

And, as I've previously stated, I like classical because I think it's better, that opinion was formed without outside influence

 

Its what you said bud.  lol.  You said it helps curtail your adhd as well to put it into context for you.   But hey,  chess is said to teach discipline and if you think that benefits you then more power to you.   I just happen to think you should play what you truly enjoy,  not what you think you should be playing.   You have absolutely been influenced to believe otherwise, as evident and confirmed when you were debating me over it.

I think classical is the most fun, that's why I prefer to play it.

And what I said was that under most circumstances sitting and focusing on one thing for ours on end would be torture, but I enjoy classical, and I promise I'm not a masochist.

Might I ask, influenced by who? I don't talk to any older chess players and the middle-aged and younger ones I do talk to all prefer blitz and rapid

Avatar of Morfizera
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
 

  The Classical championship is more of a team sport,  that requires financial and political backing,  and depends solely on memory and prep.  

 

l did not just read that

 

Its what Anna Cramlings GM mother said,  and I agree with her.  Read her wikipedia article.   ITs very political,   and there are alot of resources that go into helping a player prep.  Its why Russians called Dubov a traitor for helping Magnus in the last world Champs.  Its why Russia has dominated for so many years,  the full power of their government helps them.

 

I'm not disputing the fact you need a decent amount of money to be able to hire a team of strong GMs to prep a bunch of lines for you, but saying that it "depends solely on memory and prep"  is complete nonsense.

 

 


Thats exactly what Fischer said, word for word.     When players like Capablanca,  Fischer,  Wesley So,  Hikaru,  say chess is really just all theory and will probably be dead in 80 years,   that is what they mean.  When people say they are playing for the "correct"  or "accurate" moves they are pretty much admitting this.  Like saying the perfect game leads to a draw.   Its just simply not sporting because Human errors are what make a game sporting.   Without that we might as well be robots and computers.    Thats why i like blitz so much,  I never considered chess to be a sport until I learned you can play with a clock.

 

I'd like to see a link to that quote "word for word" from Fischer. He did say you need a strong memory, but to say that the WCC depends solely on that is absurdly ludicrous. And even if he said that, which I doubt, it's a known fact that he was as much a lunatic as he was a chess genius. And you'd have to take the context that he was paranoid and didn't trust anyone to help him with his prep (possibly one of the reasons he ran from Karpov) while the whole SU was teamed-up to beat him. But he still managed to outplay Spassky, Petrosian and other strong masters even after being "outprepped" by them and losing the "memory battle", thus going into middlegames with inferior positions.

 

People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible.

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is ridiculously preposterous.

No offense, but it seems you don't know what "solely" means.

 

i'm not going to go searching for links bud.  Its his most famous interview.  He is in his bedroom i think an old guy with a beard.  Hikaru even played the interview on his twitch stream in one of his videos.  Its very well known that fischer resented and hated chess in the end and said it was all memory and theory prep and creativity was down on the list.  He said computer engines ruined the sport.

I didn't read the rest of your thread,  because you probably think you are arguing with me,  when you are arguing with what many GM's have said whether you believe it or not.

But it is my opinion that classical chess will die long before speed chess ever does.  As is the case on this very website.

I don't think I'm arguing with anyone. I'm simply demonstrating how farcical your statement was. It's fine you don't have to go searching for links when you don't have them. Any logic or evidence would suffice. 

Now you told the OP "I don't think you're being honest with yourself" and here you are saying that you did not read the rest of the post, coincidently right where I start explaining with logic, evidence, facts, and real life examples (not with empty quotes attributed to GMs but that so far have not been backed up)  how comically nonsensical your affirmation was. Are you sure you're being honest with yourself?  Lol what a classic "didn't read it" ...yea right... yet you read the next one and even thumbs up, and also read and wrote longer posts than that to the OP... ok sure whatever you gotta say to avoid facing the reality that you said something foolish and are not ready to admit it yet. If you have to try and convince yourself and this forum you didn't read it just to make yourself feel better, by all means it's alright you do what you gotta do buddy I don't judge. But I do want to let you know  there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind in face of logic and evidence, in fact, it's quite healthy. And even if you don't agree it's always important to keep an open mind and at the very least look at information that goes contrary to our beliefs, which is why I asked you for the quote "word for word" you claimed to have about the wcc depending solely on memory and prep, because I couldn't find it.  Although it is important to note that just because a GM said something about chess, it doesn't make it automatically true. So it should be taken with a grain of salt especially if said GM is a known madman who got even crazier as he got older.

But since you did thumbs up a couple of other posts of mine, it looks like some of my thinking and logic appeals and makes sense to you, so I humbly do recommend the reading of the rest of my post you didn't read, it takes less time than it took you to read this one right here, and who knows, perhaps next time you can even ask Hikaru on his stream what he thinks of my reasoning. I would honestly really love to hear his insights on what I just said in that post.

 

Did I say argue?  If I did its just another word for debating and nothing wrong with doing so.    My friend,  I hate to say it,  but you are embarrassing yourself.  It is well known and documented that is what Fischer has said.   Maybe ask somebody lol.   

 

My friend,  he said he plays classical which is torture.   I'm simply saying if it is torture why torture yourself?   I think he is listening to people like you who claim that is the only real chess worthy of playing.  Thats nonsense.    Even if you don't believe those GM's have made the statements I've attributed to them,  would you agree that they mostly play bullet on this website?   Do you think they are playing it because it hurts their careers and is not real chess?    I'm trying to get across to you guys that this is a competitive sport,  not a math equation.  If you all you want to do is memorize engine moves why not just play with a computer?  Do whatever you like best, to each his own,  but I would not suggest people "torture" themselves because you will just frustrate them out of the game altogether.

 

 

I know what "argue" means and I never said it was wrong to do so. I also never said that classical chess is the only real chess. I don't know where you got that from but it seems you do have a problem with reading simple statements and interpreting them correctly. Must be why you can't interpret the context when GMs casually say there's a lot of memorization involved in modern chess. 

Since we are talking meaning of words, have you looked up the meaning of "solely" ?

You claim it is well documented Fischer and other GMs said wcc depends solely on memory and prep and take that like its the absolute truth without minimal critical thinking about it, yet you have failed over and over again to provide any sort of evidence, link or logical reasoning to back that up. So far all you have said is there is an interview where he claims such thing, probably around the time he laughed when 9/11 happened, which goes to show that at the point of said interview that you haven't provided yet, Fischer was a complete nutjob. I must in fact probably be embarrassing myself by arguing with you. If my friends saw thread I'd hear something like "why are you wasting your time with that dimwit?" but oh well, I do find it entertaining sometimes.

And to answer your question, GMs here play a lot of 3min blitz and bullet for various reasons, one of them being because it's fun. Another reason is it doesn't take 4 hours and is not nearly as exhausting to the brain since the moves are mostly superficial. But most of the time when they are seriously competing OTB they are playing classical. But I already said what I said about the difference of blitz, bullet and classical in one of my previous post so don't try to  drag me into that discussion of yours to deflect and avoid the fact that you either don't know the meaning of the word "solely" or still is not able to face the fact that I proved you wrong. And by the way, it is a known fact that playing longer time formats such as classical and rapid does improve your calculating abilities and speed at which you recognize patterns which by consequence improves your blitz chess skills. In fact many GMs have said so. Try playing rapid and actually thinking through the moves and consequences of your moves and you'll notice both your rapid and blitz elo rising. Maybe you might even be able to break a 1000 if you want to

 

Avatar of Morfizera
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
Morfizera wrote:
CooloutAC wrote:
 

  The Classical championship is more of a team sport,  that requires financial and political backing,  and depends solely on memory and prep.  

 

l did not just read that

 

Its what Anna Cramlings GM mother said,  and I agree with her.  Read her wikipedia article.   ITs very political,   and there are alot of resources that go into helping a player prep.  Its why Russians called Dubov a traitor for helping Magnus in the last world Champs.  Its why Russia has dominated for so many years,  the full power of their government helps them.

 

I'm not disputing the fact you need a decent amount of money to be able to hire a team of strong GMs to prep a bunch of lines for you, but saying that it "depends solely on memory and prep"  is complete nonsense.

 

 


Thats exactly what Fischer said, word for word.     When players like Capablanca,  Fischer,  Wesley So,  Hikaru,  say chess is really just all theory and will probably be dead in 80 years,   that is what they mean.  When people say they are playing for the "correct"  or "accurate" moves they are pretty much admitting this.  Like saying the perfect game leads to a draw.   Its just simply not sporting because Human errors are what make a game sporting.   Without that we might as well be robots and computers.    Thats why i like blitz so much,  I never considered chess to be a sport until I learned you can play with a clock.

 

I'd like to see a link to that quote "word for word" from Fischer. He did say you need a strong memory, but to say that the WCC depends solely on that is absurdly ludicrous. And even if he said that, which I doubt, it's a known fact that he was as much a lunatic as he was a chess genius. And you'd have to take the context that he was paranoid and didn't trust anyone to help him with his prep (possibly one of the reasons he ran from Karpov) while the whole SU was teamed-up to beat him. But he still managed to outplay Spassky, Petrosian and other strong masters even after being "outprepped" by them and losing the "memory battle", thus going into middlegames with inferior positions.

 

People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible.

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is ridiculously preposterous.

No offense, but it seems you don't know what "solely" means.

 

i'm not going to go searching for links bud.  Its his most famous interview.  He is in his bedroom i think an old guy with a beard.  Hikaru even played the interview on his twitch stream in one of his videos.  Its very well known that fischer resented and hated chess in the end and said it was all memory and theory prep and creativity was down on the list.  He said computer engines ruined the sport.

I didn't read the rest of your thread,  because you probably think you are arguing with me,  when you are arguing with what many GM's have said whether you believe it or not.

But it is my opinion that classical chess will die long before speed chess ever does.  As is the case on this very website.

I don't think I'm arguing with anyone. I'm simply demonstrating how farcical your statement was. It's fine you don't have to go searching for links when you don't have them. Any logic or evidence would suffice. 

Now you told the OP "I don't think you're being honest with yourself" and here you are saying that you did not read the rest of the post, coincidently right where I start explaining with logic, evidence, facts, and real life examples (not with empty quotes attributed to GMs but that so far have not been backed up)  how comically nonsensical your affirmation was. Are you sure you're being honest with yourself?  Lol what a classic "didn't read it" ...yea right... yet you read the next one and even thumbs up, and also read and wrote longer posts than that to the OP... ok sure whatever you gotta say to avoid facing the reality that you said something foolish and are not ready to admit it yet. If you have to try and convince yourself and this forum you didn't read it just to make yourself feel better, by all means it's alright you do what you gotta do buddy I don't judge. But I do want to let you know  there's absolutely nothing wrong with changing your mind in face of logic and evidence, in fact, it's quite healthy. And even if you don't agree it's always important to keep an open mind and at the very least look at information that goes contrary to our beliefs, which is why I asked you for the quote "word for word" you claimed to have about the wcc depending solely on memory and prep, because I couldn't find it.  Although it is important to note that just because a GM said something about chess, it doesn't make it automatically true. So it should be taken with a grain of salt especially if said GM is a known madman who got even crazier as he got older.

But since you did thumbs up a couple of other posts of mine, it looks like some of my thinking and logic appeals and makes sense to you, so I humbly do recommend the reading of the rest of my post you didn't read, it takes less time than it took you to read this one right here, and who knows, perhaps next time you can even ask Hikaru on his stream what he thinks of my reasoning. I would honestly really love to hear his insights on what I just said in that post.

 

Did I say argue?  If I did its just another word for debating and nothing wrong with doing so.    My friend,  I hate to say it,  but you are embarrassing yourself.  It is well known and documented that is what Fischer has said.   Maybe ask somebody lol.   

 

My friend,  he said he plays classical which is torture.   I'm simply saying if it is torture why torture yourself?   I think he is listening to people like you who claim that is the only real chess worthy of playing.  Thats nonsense.    Even if you don't believe those GM's have made the statements I've attributed to them,  would you agree that they mostly play bullet on this website?   Do you think they are playing it because it hurts their careers and is not real chess?    I'm trying to get across to you guys that this is a competitive sport,  not a math equation.  If you all you want to do is memorize engine moves why not just play with a computer?  Do whatever you like best, to each his own,  but I would not suggest people "torture" themselves because you will just frustrate them out of the game altogether.

 

 

I know what "argue" means and I never said it was wrong to do so. I also never said that classical chess is the only real chess. I don't know where you got that from but it seems you do have a problem with reading simple statements and interpreting them correctly. Must be why you can't interpret the context when GMs casually say there's a lot of memorization involved in modern chess. 

Since we are talking meaning of words, have you looked up the meaning of "solely" ?

You claim it is well documented Fischer and other GMs said wcc depends solely on memory and prep and take that like its the absolute truth without minimal critical thinking about it, yet you have failed over and over again to provide any sort of evidence, link or logical reasoning to back that up. So far all you have said is there is an interview where he claims such thing, probably around the time he laughed when 9/11 happened, which goes to show that at the point of said interview that you haven't provided yet, Fischer was a complete nutjob. I must in fact probably be embarrassing myself by arguing with you. If my friends saw thread I'd hear something like "why are you wasting your time with that dimwit?" but oh well, I do find it entertaining sometimes.

And to answer your question, GMs here play a lot of 3min blitz and bullet for various reasons, one of them being because it's fun. Another reason is it doesn't take 4 hours and is not nearly as exhausting to the brain since the moves are mostly superficial. But most of the time when they are seriously competing OTB they are playing classical. But I already said what I said about the difference of blitz, bullet and classical in one of my previous post so don't try to  drag me into that discussion of yours to deflect and avoid the fact that you either don't know the meaning of the word "solely" or still is not able to face the fact that I proved you wrong. And by the way, it is a known fact that playing longer time formats such as classical and rapid does improve your calculating abilities and speed at which you recognize patterns which by consequence improves your blitz chess skills. In fact many GMs have said so. Try playing rapid and actually thinking through the moves and consequences of your moves and you'll notice both your rapid and blitz elo rising. Maybe you might even be able to break a 1000 if you want to

 

 

LOL,  explain to me the context then.   To me its common sense.  

 

Yes thats exactly what he said, solely,  but when the interviewer pressed him on "what about creativity"   He said if creativity still exists,  it is below the other two on the list.   Fischer felt that computer engine theory made the game of chess no longer sporting and he quit playing.   Again,  this is common knowledge among chess fans and the interview is out there for you to watch yourself.  

I think when a GM is playing 100 bullet matches in a row against high rated opponents,  it can be exhausting.  But  a majore difference is people are more relaxed at home,  can easily drink and eat.    Also,   as in the current SCC events,  they are playing for money and prestige.   These are professional chess players.   But you are right about one thing,  as Ding Liren says, More games means more chances.

Right now Vishy Anand is playing in the Superbet rapid and blitz poland championship.   Pretty sure its a "serious" event.   I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I think you are assuming all these pro players do is play classical OTB.   You are wrong.  IN recent years rapid and blitz are becoming very prominent in FIDE and I believe it is the future.

I might not ever break 1000,  because I lack the memory, spatial vision, processing speed,  discipline and mental fortitude.  But I don't care because thanks to the online website I can get competitive matches at any level which is all competitive sports are about.  

 

I never said anything that would remotely lead to the assumption that I think that all pro players do is play classical OTB. The word "most" is clearly spelt in that sentence. Because when you look at highest prizes and importance of tournaments, majority of them are classical. That doesn't mean that there aren't serious competition in other time formats, nor have I denied the rise in popularity of faster time controls. But I can assure you, even if prize money was the same, vast majority of GMs would rather win a Tata Steel, or Wiijk aan Zee, or world cup, or grand prix, etc not to mention Candidates, over SCC. And that's a no-brainer for them.

And no, playing 100 bullet games is not as exhausting as playing an intense serious classical game. That's not an opinion that's a fact. As I said, my point on this subject was made clear several posts ago and you gave it a thumbs up so I don't get where you're trying to go with all this deflecting, assuming and distorting. That's your discussion with the OP and a rather pointless one. I was simply answering your question as to why they play blitz and bullet on chess.com. 

 

Now,, if creativity is below the other two on the list, then it's not solely memory and prep. You should have looked the meaning of "solely" in the dictionary by now. If you think creativity and calculating doesn't play a role, you haven't paid the slightest attention and have no clue what you are talking about. 

As to the context, look up what a hyperbole is... People have been saying that opening prep is going to ruin chess for over a century and it still hasn't happened. That would only apply to the elite of the elite, and barely... and even then you still have a bunch of classical GM games being decided on blunders and human errors - as you like to put. Look at the very last WCC where Magnus tilted Nepo with that spectacular game 6 win. I can assure you no memory alone can play that endgame. In game 2, Nepo fell for Magnus prep, but Magnus blundered and was in a lost position, then was able to come back because Nepo is human and prone to human error, made mistake and wasn't able to capitalize the advantage. "solely on memory"... yea right.... In fact, Magnus's prep was not necessarily to get better positions, what he wanted was to try and get out of Nepo's prep but not necessarily with lines where he gets advantage. He just wanted equal-ish, imbalanced, positions with practical chances in the middle or endgame where he can pose problems for Nepo and simply play real calculating chess. If possible but not necessarily, in types of positions and pawn structures that gets Nepo uncomfortable. Even if that meant being down a few centipawns according to stockfish's evaluation. Sometimes he was able to do that, sometimes he wasn't and played safe. But he was actually trying to avoid the "memory battle" as much as possible

 

There's only so much you and your team can do with stockfish and Leela at home. But once you're on the board on your own, relying in only your memory and calculating abilities, anything can happen. For example,  if you were to face Magnus you could have the prep of the top 100 GMs combined, and play with the aid of the whole Cramling family and consulting a dozen NMs (without engines during the game, obviously) and you wouldn't be able to beat Magnus.  Pia Cramling, as strong a player as she is, wouldn't be able to outplay Magnus either once he got her out of her preparation. 

 

So yes, to say that it depends "solely on memory and prep" is still ridiculous.