I agree, I retract that 3rd possibility because zugzwang only occurs with triangulation and pieces that cannot change the dimensions of their movement. White has all pieces in the beginning
True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides
Sort:
For the record, @5 years ago, and 2000 posts earlier, @Ponz111 advanced the following proposition --
"I believe from 62 years of playing chess and thousands of my own games that chess is a draw unless one side or the other makes a mistake. I would suggest that out of billions of chess games that one cannot find even one game which was won or lost without one of the players making a mistake. If anyone thinks they can find such a game please post it here."
He asked an empirical question, NOT a theoretical one.
Examples, anyone ?? 
Quantum Computers will solve chess.
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
DavidHHH wrote:
The statement proves itself and requires no analysis. if a move led to a loss then it was a mistake. That's why nobody will find a game which ended up in a loss and had no mistakes.
I strongly believe it is likely a draw, but you are missing some nuanced perspective.
Computers calculate and find blunders, mistakes, and inaccuracies. BUT, if in the future an extraordinary computer can literally play a perfect game, it will find blunders and mistakes that current computers determine are perfectly acceptable moves. Think about it. All of the top engines are fallible and lose to other engines. In all of their losses they were choosing what they calculated to be the best moves.
Under a perfect game scenario, there are only two possibilities.
1. The game is drawn.
2. From the starting position, black is already trapped in a mating net.
I said only two possibilities because I think we can reasonably rule out the theoretical third possibility:
3. From the starting position, White is in zugzwang and trapped in a mating net.
That seems to be the trend. Pretty much everyone agrees that the percentage of draws is going up, and the percentage of white wins is going up. Which leaves the possibility of a forced win by black more and more unlikely. I agree that it's likely in the future a computer will find mistakes that computers now cannot find. Which is why it's still way too early to make statements like it must be this or must be that. All we can do is guess, based on what we currently know.
Mar 9, 2018
0
#2108
Or at least the stats are. Can't ignore the great players who have always said the same.
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
ponz111 wrote:
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
Perfect game means that ALL MOVES in the game were the best, not just most. I wonder how many perfect games actually exist?
EndgameStudier wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
Perfect game means that ALL MOVES in the game were the best, not just most. I wonder how many perfect games actually exist?
I can only think of possibly one. And I'm sure someone will say even it wasn't perfect. The game that started 1. Draw agreed. No moves were made so that was maybe a perfect game. I agree with what you said,once a move is made it cant be perfect (that we know of yet) because every move would have to be perfect, not just some. Even after a couple moves and a draw is agreed or someone resigns there is still a possibility of improvement. If a perfect game is ever played (where a draw isn't agreed before it starts) then we will know what "best play". Once we know what best play is, then we will know if it's a draw or not. I have a feeling that will be a long time from now.
lfPatriotGames wrote:
EndgameStudier wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
Perfect game means that ALL MOVES in the game were the best, not just most. I wonder how many perfect games actually exist?
I can only think of possibly one. And I'm sure someone will say even it wasn't perfect. The game that started 1. Draw agreed. No moves were made so that was maybe a perfect game. I agree with what you said,once a move is made it cant be perfect (that we know of yet) because every move would have to be perfect, not just some. Even after a couple moves and a draw is agreed or someone resigns there is still a possibility of improvement. If a perfect game is ever played (where a draw isn't agreed before it starts) then we will know what "best play". Once we know what best play is, then we will know if it's a draw or not. I have a feeling that will be a long time from now.
Sorry, but just because you [or anyone else] does not know when a perfect game has been played--does not mean a perfect game has not been played.
A perfect game does not require that you see it or understand it.
There have actually been thousands of perfect games played even if you do not know this. 
Mar 12, 2018
0
#2113
lfPatriotGames wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
DavidHHH wrote:
The statement proves itself and requires no analysis. if a move led to a loss then it was a mistake. That's why nobody will find a game which ended up in a loss and had no mistakes.
I strongly believe it is likely a draw, but you are missing some nuanced perspective.
Computers calculate and find blunders, mistakes, and inaccuracies. BUT, if in the future an extraordinary computer can literally play a perfect game, it will find blunders and mistakes that current computers determine are perfectly acceptable moves. Think about it. All of the top engines are fallible and lose to other engines. In all of their losses they were choosing what they calculated to be the best moves.
Under a perfect game scenario, there are only two possibilities.
1. The game is drawn.
2. From the starting position, black is already trapped in a mating net.
I said only two possibilities because I think we can reasonably rule out the theoretical third possibility:
3. From the starting position, White is in zugzwang and trapped in a mating net.
That seems to be the trend. Pretty much everyone agrees that the percentage of draws is going up, and the percentage of white wins is going up. Which leaves the possibility of a forced win by black more and more unlikely. I agree that it's likely in the future a computer will find mistakes that computers now cannot find. Which is why it's still way too early to make statements like it must be this or must be that. All we can do is guess, based on what we currently know.
I do think logic and probability dictates the outcome is overwhelmingly likely a draw, though no one can say for sure.
One mathematician conservatively estimated the possible game variations is 10 (to the 120 power). That is an incredibly enormous number. For White to have a forced win, would mean there is not a single line in all of that where Black can force a draw. Not a single forced stalemate, forced repeat, perpetual check, insufficient material, or 50 move rule.
Mar 12, 2018
0
#2114
ponz111 wrote:
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
1. You can’t possibly know if any, let alone how many has been played.
2. I would be surprised if even a single perfect game has been played.
Mar 12, 2018
0
#2115
False. White to play and zugzwang. Once chess is solved and this is proven, the winning % of the black pieces will rise 5 points for psychological reasons.
Okay, if I'm being serious. Too many ways to waste a move for it to be black winning w/ perfect play. And there are way too many resources and variables for it to be white to win w/ perfect play. It's almost certainly drawn. But who can say? No one. And a GM is no wiser.
By the way a perfect game means all moves in the game were without error. Not "best" as there are many moves in almost any given position which are without error.
There is a difference between "best play" and "best move" In almost all positions there is no "best move" . I will give an example...
"Best play" means playing without error. "Best move" means finding one best move in a position--the problem with this is there are usually many moves in a position which will keep a draw.
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
1. You can’t possibly know if any, let alone how many has been played.
2. I would be surprised if even a single perfect game has been played.
Sorry but there have been thousands of perfect games played.
A perfect game does not require that you [or anyone else] knows it is a perfect game.
A perfect game is a game played without errors. This has happened thousands of times.
LosingAndLearning81 wrote:
False. White to play and zugzwang. Once chess is solved and this is proven, the winning % of the black pieces will rise 5 points for psychological reasons.
Okay, if I'm being serious. Too many ways to waste a move for it to be black winning w/ perfect play. And there are way too many resources and variables for it to be white to win w/ perfect play. It's almost certainly drawn. But who can say? No one. And a GM is no wiser.
actually GMs are wiser when it comes to chess than the vast majority of chess players...
Mar 12, 2018
0
#2119
Wrong. A GM is no wiser when it comes to solving chess than a bumbling retard rated at 240. We're about as close to solving chess as we are to learning 100% of the species of the deep. Not even .01% of the way there.
Mar 12, 2018
0
#2120
ponz111 wrote:
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
Despite what some posters state--there have already been played thousands of perfect games. [probably millions]
As players [including chess engines] become stronger--there are more and more games drawn.
There has not been one game out of billions of games played where one side won without the other side making a mistake. [if anyone disagrees--feel free to post the game]
The more people know about the game of chess, the more likely they believe the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes an error.[the higher your rating--the more likely you will think the game of chess is a draw when neither side makes a mistake.]
I agree that i should have used "optimum" in some places where I used "best" as "best" implies only one move and in most positions there are several moves which are optimum and lead to the theoretical result.
1. You can’t possibly know if any, let alone how many has been played.
2. I would be surprised if even a single perfect game has been played.
Sorry but there have been thousands of perfect games played.
A perfect game does not require that you [or anyone else] knows it is a perfect game.
A perfect game is a game played without errors. This has happened thousands of times.
You can NOT know that. Unless you personally solved chess. You have NO WAY of knowing if every move is a mistake or not.
The statement proves itself and requires no analysis. if a move led to a loss then it was a mistake. That's why nobody will find a game which ended up in a loss and had no mistakes.
I strongly believe it is likely a draw, but you are missing some nuanced perspective.
Computers calculate and find blunders, mistakes, and inaccuracies. BUT, if in the future an extraordinary computer can literally play a perfect game, it will find blunders and mistakes that current computers determine are perfectly acceptable moves. Think about it. All of the top engines are fallible and lose to other engines. In all of their losses they were choosing what they calculated to be the best moves.
Under a perfect game scenario, there are only two possibilities.
1. The game is drawn.
2. From the starting position, black is already trapped in a mating net.
I said only two possibilities because I think we can reasonably rule out the theoretical third possibility:
3. From the starting position, White is in zugzwang and trapped in a mating net.