True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

Sort:
Ziryab
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:

@KibiDangoman The word you are looking for is blunder. 

Don't rely too heavily on engine analysis. There are still positions that Stockfish gets wrong, or does not get right fast enough.

For instance, I played Black against Stockfish from this position last week. It took some time before the initial evaluation of +2.00 gave way to +0.50, and several moves before it recognized the position as 0.00.



What computer are you using? Even the slow chess.com Stockfish 10 shows ~1.10 immediately and drops to 0.8 in about 3 seconds, less than a minute later and it evaluates 0.36. This is all without TBs.

 

I don’t recall. It may have been my iPad. The point, of course, is that 0.36 is inaccurate. The position is a dead draw with correct play. 0.00 would be accurate.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Ziryab escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:

@KibiDangoman The word you are looking for is blunder. 

Don't rely too heavily on engine analysis. There are still positions that Stockfish gets wrong, or does not get right fast enough.

For instance, I played Black against Stockfish from this position last week. It took some time before the initial evaluation of +2.00 gave way to +0.50, and several moves before it recognized the position as 0.00.



What computer are you using? Even the slow chess.com Stockfish 10 shows ~1.10 immediately and drops to 0.8 in about 3 seconds, less than a minute later and it evaluates 0.36. This is all without TBs.

 

I don’t recall. It may have been my iPad. The point, of course, is that 0.36 is inaccurate. The position is a dead draw with correct play. 0.00 would be accurate.

Anyone who knows how engines work would know such low evaluations only indicate advantage and not a winning position, this is especially true for an endgame. Whether it should evaluate with 0.00 a drawn position with "advantage" is a subjective decision.

Ziryab

There is no advantage in a simple textbook draw. It is your chess knowledge that is missing.

 

My limited knowledge of chess engines is built upon the thin data compiled through only a few years of near daily use since 1989.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Ziryab escribió:

There is no advantage in a simple textbook draw. It is your chess knowledge that is missing.

 

My limited knowledge of chess engines is built upon the thin data compiled through only a few years of near daily use since 1989.

Advantage is always the product of holes in anybody's chess understanding, the only true objective evaluations are winning, equal or losing positions.

Tepeyac

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Prometheus_Fuschs
Tepeyac escribió:

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Que la virgencita lo protega tongue.png

Prometheus_Fuschs
Ziryab escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:

@KibiDangoman The word you are looking for is blunder. 

Don't rely too heavily on engine analysis. There are still positions that Stockfish gets wrong, or does not get right fast enough.

For instance, I played Black against Stockfish from this position last week. It took some time before the initial evaluation of +2.00 gave way to +0.50, and several moves before it recognized the position as 0.00.



What computer are you using? Even the slow chess.com Stockfish 10 shows ~1.10 immediately and drops to 0.8 in about 3 seconds, less than a minute later and it evaluates 0.36. This is all without TBs.

 

I don’t recall. It may have been my iPad. The point, of course, is that 0.36 is inaccurate. The position is a dead draw with correct play. 0.00 would be accurate.

Technically, 0.36 is about a third of a pawn of an advantage, such advantage in virtually any endgame is meaningless.

Ziryab
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:

@KibiDangoman The word you are looking for is blunder. 

Don't rely too heavily on engine analysis. There are still positions that Stockfish gets wrong, or does not get right fast enough.

For instance, I played Black against Stockfish from this position last week. It took some time before the initial evaluation of +2.00 gave way to +0.50, and several moves before it recognized the position as 0.00.



What computer are you using? Even the slow chess.com Stockfish 10 shows ~1.10 immediately and drops to 0.8 in about 3 seconds, less than a minute later and it evaluates 0.36. This is all without TBs.

 

I don’t recall. It may have been my iPad. The point, of course, is that 0.36 is inaccurate. The position is a dead draw with correct play. 0.00 would be accurate.

Technically, 0.36 is about a third of a pawn of an advantage, such advantage in virtually any endgame is meaningless.

 

When the computer sees a clear draw, the numbers are 0.00. That 0.36 is equal is another matter. In the diagram that I posted, the draw is clear, simple, and undeniable. Nonetheless, the engine running sans tablebases takes more than five seconds to reach that conclusion.

 

My point—simple and clear—don’t put all your stock in engine analysis. It will retard your chess development.

 

I’m done arguing this point with people who understand neither chess nor chess engines.

Shewas34

It is meaningless at any Stage of the game actually.

ponz111

0.36 advantage in the opening is not meaningless to a very strong chess player. It improves practical chances.  

But of course don't put all your stock in an evaluation of 0.36 advantage by a chess engine.

About 4 years ago a grand master gave two positions [here on chess com] which the chess engines got wrong --because I am a human and can think out side the box--I solved both positions. 

Ziryab
ponz111 wrote:

0.36 advantage in the opening is not meaningless to a very strong chess player. It improves practical chances.  

But of course don't put all your stock in an evaluation of 0.36 advantage by a chess engine.

About 4 years ago a grand master gave two positions [here on chess com] which the chess engines got wrong --because I am a human and can think out side the box--I solved both positions. 

 

The discussion the past two pages emanates from the position here, where Boguljubow missed a draw with 70...Kg4.

Ziryab wrote:

@KibiDangoman The word you are looking for is blunder. 

Don't rely too heavily on engine analysis. There are still positions that Stockfish gets wrong, or does not get right fast enough.

For instance, I played Black against Stockfish from this position last week. It took some time before the initial evaluation of +2.00 gave way to +0.50, and several moves before it recognized the position as 0.00.


Here's a screenshot of Stockfish 10 not finding the true 0.00, and also showing evaluations while playing out the position. It was six moves before Stockfish showed 0.01 and ten until 0.00. 

Of course, it was pointed out quite accurately, that with tablebases, Stockfish sees this position correctly in an instant.

 

llamonade2
ponz111 wrote:

0.36 advantage in the opening is not meaningless to a very strong chess player.

Actually it is.

Even professionals frequently choose to "spend" (so to speak) that small amount of "advantage" to get positions where they have better practical chances.

Only weak players think of 0.3 out of the opening as meaningful.

Of course, 0.3 could be good for white, but without seeing the position for context, 0.3 all by itself is meaningless. It could even offer black better chances in a real game.

Ziryab

@llamonade2 for instance, in the King’s Indian Defense, the computer favors White (sometimes by 2.00), even when Black’s attack is imminent. That’s one example, but there are many.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Ziryab escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:
Prometheus_Fuschs wrote:
Ziryab escribió:

@KibiDangoman The word you are looking for is blunder. 

Don't rely too heavily on engine analysis. There are still positions that Stockfish gets wrong, or does not get right fast enough.

For instance, I played Black against Stockfish from this position last week. It took some time before the initial evaluation of +2.00 gave way to +0.50, and several moves before it recognized the position as 0.00.



What computer are you using? Even the slow chess.com Stockfish 10 shows ~1.10 immediately and drops to 0.8 in about 3 seconds, less than a minute later and it evaluates 0.36. This is all without TBs.

 

I don’t recall. It may have been my iPad. The point, of course, is that 0.36 is inaccurate. The position is a dead draw with correct play. 0.00 would be accurate.

Technically, 0.36 is about a third of a pawn of an advantage, such advantage in virtually any endgame is meaningless.

 

When the computer sees a clear draw, the numbers are 0.00. That 0.36 is equal is another matter. In the diagram that I posted, the draw is clear, simple, and undeniable. Nonetheless, the engine running sans tablebases takes more than five seconds to reach that conclusion.

 

My point—simple and clear—don’t put all your stock in engine analysis. It will retard your chess development.

 

I’m done arguing this point with people who understand neither chess nor chess engines.

0.36 is literally 36 centipawns in an open position, what that means to you is not my concern but it's well known one pawn of advantage in rook endgames is most of the times irrelevant let alone a third of a pawn lol.

Prometheus_Fuschs

Opening evaluations by engines are quite useless even if correct (which most of times aren't), endgames may vary and OFC you need to interpret the result correctly.

Prometheus_Fuschs
Optimissed escribió:

People seem to be discussing computer evaluations and trying to work out if they are objective and, if they are objective, what would signify a winning position.

It's a waste of time in answering this O.P. question. An experienced, strong player knows the answer and knows that computers are no stronger than humans ... they're just more consistent. The answer is given by first principles regarding the dynamics of all chess games. All wins can be shown to be preventable and therefore chess is drawn with optimum play.

LMAO, that's so wrong.

ponz111

llamonade guy  your statement "that only weak players think of 0.30 out of the opening as meaningful." is not correct at all.  0.30 slight advantage is quite meaningful to me and I have won many games against strong players starting with that kind of an advantage and I am not a weak player. 

Practical chances mean something. Even having the first move advantage in chess means something as stats show. 

ponz111

By the way it is rather well known that a computer with the aid of a strong human is better than just a computer alone.

 

 

llamonade2

Yes, practical advantages mean a lot, which is exactly why people ignore what the engine says in the opening.

Well, that and engines lack both the resources and design to play well in the opening in the first place.

That being said, obviously engines have changed the way players approach openings. Engine evaluations are important. But citing things like 0.3 in the opening is a nonstarter.

ponz111

llamonade it is not really true that engines "lack the resources and design to play well in the opening, 

 

Just look at some of the games of Alpha Zero.  Alpha Zero plays the opening better than programmed chess Engines such as stock fish.  Alpha Zero was never "taught" or programmed with opening play.