True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides
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The Komodo engine says is +0.52 better
Yes but is does not matter yes it’s draw if no one makes mistakes
iluv If you are saying in the vast majority of chess games--there is no perfect game as players often make mistakes. I have been saying this all along. Nothing new.
If you wish to define chess as a game where there are many mistakes in play you can define chess that way.
But there are many chess games where neither side makes a mistake And those are chess games also.
True
ponz111 wrote:
PATRIOT Sorry but a ton of evidence means a lot. In many crime cases--one piece of evidence is not enough--but a accumulation of enough evidence proves the case. This I have shown to you several times but you choose to ignore.
The top checker players knew checkers was a draw WAY before it was math proven. I don't know which is stronger--the first move advantage in checkers or the first move advantage in chess? I do know that either advantage is not enough to win when both sides play without a mistake.
Why don't you give the evidence that chess is a forced win for White??
I don't care that you are not impressed in the ton of evidence that chess is a draw? Do you even know all the evidence that has been presented in these forum posts?
If you dont know which advantage is greater, how can you know that either is not enough to win? You don't know. You guess. Isn't it possible that the first move advantage in chess is much greater than the first move advantage in checkers, and thats why checkers is a draw? Some experts say that the first move in checkers is not an advantage, and sometimes is a disadvantage. And that's why checker players knew checkers was a draw before it was proven. I dont know of any experts who say the first move in chess is a disadvantage.
PATRIOT To answer your question? If I don't know which first move advantage is greater--how do I know that either is not enough to win? We Already Know the first move advantage for checkers is not enough to win as checkers has been math solved and is a draw with best play on both sides.! [you seem from your question not to know this?]
As to chess there is a ton of evidence that chess is a draw and the first move advantage is not enough to win.
You are correct that in practical play no experts or above will say the first move is a disadvantage---
it is an advantage in practical play so to speak--I have always said that.
PATRIOT ATTENTION! ATTENTION! NEW EVIDENCE THAT BLACK WINS.
Here is a game [slow time period--3 days per move] that I played right here on chess.com vs a Grand Master. Note I had Black, Note White resigned after I played 20. ... d4
GrandMaster vs Ponz
ponz111 wrote:
PATRIOT To answer your question? If I don't know which first move advantage is greater--how do I know that either is not enough to win? We Already Know the first move advantage for checkers is not enough to win as checkers has been math solved and is a draw with best play on both sides.! [you seem from your question not to know this?]
As to chess there is a ton of evidence that chess is a draw and the first move advantage is not enough to win.
You are correct that in practical play no experts or above will say the first move is a disadvantage---
it is an advantage in practical play so to speak--I have always said that.
Thank you for saying the same thing over and over and not answering the question. So I'll reword the question. Isn't it possible that the first move in checkers is much less of an advantage than the first move in chess, and THAT"S why people knew checkers was a draw before it was proven?
PATRIOT The very top checker players were not top chess players. So they could not compare the first move advantage of chess with the first move advantage of checkers. So that was not the reason they knew checkers was a draw.
They knew checkers was a draw for similar reasons that top chess players know chess is a draw.
ponz111 wrote:
PATRIOT The very top checker players were not top chess players. So they could not compare the first move advantage of chess with the first move advantage of checkers. So that was not the reason they knew checkers was a draw.
They knew checkers was a draw for similar reasons that top chess players know chess is a draw.
Why would top checker players have to be top chess players also? Isn't it common knowledge among people who search the internet for such things that the first move advantage in checkers is very small (or non existant). And isn't it also easily found out that the first move in chess is an advantage? A person doesn't have to play either game to know this.
So, isn't it possible that even non checker players knew that since the first move is not really an advantage THATS why checkers is a draw? Because if you think logically, if the first move in checkers is not an advantage and it's a draw, that same reasoning cannot apply to chess. Because there is an advantage to moving first in chess.
PATRIOT It was not common knowledge to me that the first move in checkers was not any kind of advantage? I just looked it up on the internet with a strong player giving moves and he says there IS a first move advantage for checkers.
So a strong checker player indicates you are incorrect.
But like in chess the first move advantage is not enough to win if both sides make no errors.
Actually, dumb dumb, since checkers is a solved game, there is no advantage to either player at the start of the game. Once again, you've fallen for the logical fallacy appeal to authority. They should take away internet from retirement homes.
While we're here completely misunderstanding game theory, what's the advantage of going first in tic-tac-toe?
ponz111 wrote:
PATRIOT To answer your question? If I don't know which first move advantage is greater--how do I know that either is not enough to win? We Already Know the first move advantage for checkers is not enough to win as checkers has been math solved and is a draw with best play on both sides.! [you seem from your question not to know this?]
As to chess there is a ton of evidence that chess is a draw and the first move advantage is not enough to win.
You are correct that in practical play no experts or above will say the first move is a disadvantage---
it is an advantage in practical play so to speak--I have always said that.
You keep saying there are tons of evidence and yet you never provide them. Chess HAS NOT been solved MATHEMATICALLY therefore NOBODY including you knows whether chess is a draw or a decisive result. Therefore your "evidence" are basically useless and worthless. I don't understand why you even brought checkers into this when it is a completely irrelevant. However you know what was proven mathematically? The fact that there are at the very LEAST 10^120 different chess games which is greater than the amount of atoms in the observable universe. If the strongest engines on this damn planet ran on the strongest computer can only calculate not even 0.0000000000000001% of the possibilities than what the hell are your evidence? The experts are just as clueless as the engines. I read many of your posts and you're literally repeating the same damn thing over and over and over and over.
Predicting ponz111's reply: Yes, it is true the chess has not been solved. I never said that. You're strawmanning me (you're misrepresenting my argument). I have given a ton of evidence. Just look at previous posts. One of these pieces of evidence is the fact that correspondence chess draws every game at the highest level. This along with a ton of other evidence leads me, and many grandmasters, to believe chess is a draw with 99.999% certainty. You might not be good enough at chess to understand the evidence?
yeah that is pretty spot on. He doesn't even show his arguments to back up his claim he just repeats the same phrases over and over like a robot. Saying "Chess is a draw" is not an actual fact. It is an opinion and there are honestly zero evidence to back up that claim. The only way to actually prove that chess is indeed a dead draw is ONLY with MATH which by the way has not been solved. And we're not even close to solve chess because even the strongest engines are unable to calculate that far. I'm honestly curious to see these "tons of evidence" that ponz111 is talking about.
I've said I'm honestly curious, too. Boy was I naive.
JimDiesel You say "since checkers is a solved game,there is no advantage to either player at the start of the game."Actually most top checker players would disagree with you as there is a practical advantage--just as there is in chess. In chess, White with the first move wins more than Black. This is for human players up to our World Champion Magus. The only time having White is not much of an advantage is extreme highest form of correspondence chess. So this means in about 99.8 [estimate] of all; chess games--White with the first move has the advantage--=and in fact--wins more than Black.
In checkers--the situation is similar to chess. Having the first move gives a practical advantage. And thus--in checkers--the players who have the first move win more than their opponents. Only at the very highest levels of checkers the practical advantage goes away.
you are completely misquoting me.
but if you feel threatened by my viewpoints, i will stop posting.
its kind of like .... someone has a thought (chess is a draw) and that thought is all important, so it must be sent into the minds of the masses, expanding and becoming unopposable. there was a guy in ww2 had the same idea.