True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

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Chessflyfisher

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

pfren
Vishnusai25044 έγραψε:

"NO" because I have tried that with stockfish 12, and guess what ,WHITE WON AGAINST BLACK, so white will win, I have tried this 2 times, even though same results.

 

Congratulations. Now you have to set them play 10 million more games to have a sufficient statistical sample!  tongue.png tongue.png tongue.png

ponz111

Vishnusai  You did not give us information that was relevant. What was the opening?  Why do you have only a sample of two? Do you really think stockfish 12 is the strongest chess engine???  What exactly is stockfish 12???

zborg

OK Everyone.  After almost 4000 posts, why hasn't Alpha Zero been put onto this task?

It's already working on (possible) changing the rules --

https://www.zdnet.com/article/deepminds-ai-is-helping-to-re-write-the-rules-of-the-chess/?ftag=TRE-03-10aaa6b&bhid=20575108691210768145494160314087&mid=13048865&cid=717083220

So why not put it onto the issue of whether the game itself is a draw?  Surely, Alpha Zero's (practical, empirical) "answer" would be the best available at this present juncture in history.  Would it not?

And, on balance, that "result" would save us all lots of keystrokes in this discussion thread.  QED.  Ha!

NikkiLikeChikki
A0 is irrelevant. It does not play perfect chess. This is a dumb thread. It’s like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is no empirical evidence either way and all responses are just speculation based upon argumentation, not proof. Anyone who makes a unequivocal claim doesn’t understand what standards of proof are in the scientific literature.
Chessflyfisher

Yes, yes, yes! A thousand times yes! Please stop continuing this discussion and move on to discussing something more interesting such as Republican hypocrisy as regards the Supreme Court.

zborg
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
A0 is irrelevant. It does not play perfect chess. This is a dumb thread. It’s like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is no empirical evidence either way and all responses are just speculation based upon argumentation, not proof. Anyone who makes a unequivocal claim doesn’t understand what standards of proof are in the scientific literature.

This comment is pinheaded scientism.  Pure and simple.  Get a life, please.  happy.png

NikkiLikeChikki
@zborg - chess is a draw is an *empirical* claim, it’s not a claim one can resolve by expressing a well-crafted opinion. Empirical claims require empirical proof. Insulting me doesn’t change this basic fact. We might as well try to resolve what dark matter is made of by arguing about it instead of actually looking at it.
Way-of-Pain
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
Chess is a draw is an *empirical* claim, it’s not a claim one can resolve by expressing a well-crafted opinion. Empirical claims require empirical proof.

Well, that's pretty obvious. I don't get why you feel like it's important to repeat it. Then again, I don't have any scientific evidence that you aren't made of magical lettuce so evidently the only rational thing to do is to remain agnostic on the subject.

So is there definite proof that chess is a draw? No, not until we have 32-piece tablebases.

Is it rational to assume that chess is a draw? Yes, because there's little to no indication that it isn't. There's no debate here.

Prometheus_Fuschs
pfren escribió:
Vishnusai25044 έγραψε:

"NO" because I have tried that with stockfish 12, and guess what ,WHITE WON AGAINST BLACK, so white will win, I have tried this 2 times, even though same results.

 

Congratulations. Now you have to set them play 10 million more games to have a sufficient statistical sample!    

Just keep the experiment running until the results support your hypothesis wink.png

lfPatriotGames
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
A0 is irrelevant. It does not play perfect chess. This is a dumb thread. It’s like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is no empirical evidence either way and all responses are just speculation based upon argumentation, not proof. Anyone who makes a unequivocal claim doesn’t understand what standards of proof are in the scientific literature.

Even though you are obviously right, it's only a matter of time before Ponz has something to say about anyone questioning that there is not enough empirical evidence. 

zborg
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
@zborg - chess is a draw is an *empirical* claim, it’s not a claim one can resolve by expressing a well-crafted opinion. Empirical claims require empirical proof. Insulting me doesn’t change this basic fact. We might as well try to resolve what dark matter is made of by arguing about it instead of actually looking at it.

WRONG.  The best claim for "empiricism" (however defined) is our best (to date) empirical test -- i.e. a "simulation" by the strongest chess player in the world (AlphaZero).

Your position excludes all discussion (and ANY empirical test).  Which is a rather silly point of view, don't you think?  Surely it's time to (for you) move beyond Logic 101 in either high school and college.  Simple.  happy.png

And that's not intended as an insult.  It's a wake up call for the human conversation, writ large.  happy.png

P.S. your (misdirecting) reference to "dark matter" sounds like an algorithm talking, unfortunately.

zborg

Alpha Zero's (practical, empirical) "answer" would be the best available at this present juncture in history.  Would it not?

NikkiLikeChikki
@way-of-pain - it certainly is not rational to assume that it isn’t. There is undoubtedly a first move advantage for white and in high level computer play, and in self play, the vast majority of decisive games are won as white. It’s not even close. The advantage in initiative is real.

Am I saying that with perfect play chess is a white win? No. Why must we assume it’s a draw, though? Why do we have to assume anything? Why... does anyone care?

And yet people fill pages with ramblings “proving” their point. Winning a forum debate does not prove that you are right, it just means you argue better.
NikkiLikeChikki
@zborg - no A0 proves nothing. The claim is that it’s a draw. The vast majority of self claim games are draws. “Chess is a draw” is a universal claim, not a general one. Mostly a draw proves nothing since all you need to find is one perfect path to victory.
NikkiLikeChikki
Optimissed. You have a rather strange view of what empirical means. Empirical means based upon verifiable observation rather than conjecture or theory.

What you’re talking about is valid statistical inference, which is a subset of empirical observation.

And “see” dark matter is not contradictory. There are plenty of things that we can’t see in the normal spectrum of light, but that we “see” in other ways. As of now we cannot directly observe dark matter because as far as we know, it only interacts through gravity. That doesn’t preclude attempts to observe it in ways that we haven’t thought of yet so as to prove its existence.
ponz111

Optimissed while you know chess is a draw and while I know chess is a draw and while virtually all the top players know chess is a draw--there are many thousands of players who do not know this.

Why not create a forum on dark matter? 

Ziryab

Dark matter may explain brains that have atrophied.

llama
ponz111 wrote:

Optimissed while you know chess is a draw and while I know chess is a draw and while virtually all the top players know chess is a draw--there are many thousands of players who do not know this.

Why not create a forum on dark matter? 

If you knew half as much as you thought you did, then this topic wouldn't have lasted 3000+ posts.

And that's the truth.

ponz111

llama  There are many reasons the topic has lasted so long. Probably the main reason is the average player does not know most of the evidence that chess is a draw.