True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

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MichaelMarmorstein
Rocky64 wrote:

True or False Your IQ is higher than a hedgehog's.

Many people here will answer, "Probably true". 

Correct because a hypothetical hedgehog could be VERY smart.  wink.png

MichaelMarmorstein
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
@michael. I know, right?! There are some overhyped titles, but that YouTube video is fire! That is one super deep move. It’s insane.

If it's chess and not politics I don't mind the sensationalism so much;  What an incredible sacrifice!  I've seen many examples of games with sacrifices where Black has development trouble with his queenside, but it's striking to me how early the sacrifice was made and how all the opportunities black has to give some of the material back all seem to fail.  Also interesting how Leela doesn't even have to rush while Stockfish king is in the middle, but can play seemingly quiet moves.

I do think that after witnessing the game we as humans can try to make logical sense of what happened according to classical chess principles, but such rules are always a little ad hoc.  I'm positive I would never have found that novelty without computer help. 

lfPatriotGames
Marks1420 wrote:

You said chess is probably a draw now you are going back to chess is definitely a draw. 

Senile old man, bruh 🦔 

Now he's saying it's been proven. The person that proved it, no matter who it was, certainly deserves some recognition. 

lfPatriotGames
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
Ponz. You’re ridiculous. Seriously. If you’re saying that any strong player would make that sacrifice, you really are clueless.

That position has been reached hundreds of times in the database and it’s a move 8 novelty. If you would’ve seen Leela play the move and lost, you’d be talking about how stupid it was.

You really are silly. Everyone here accepts of my mathematical arguments about conjectures... everyone but you. They accept them because they 100% are airtight. All you do is repeat the same crap about your evidence. It’s nauseating. Your evidence isn’t evidence. I’ve explained to you in the simplest terms how it doesn’t meet the standard of evidence, and you just ignore arguments that you can’t answer and repeat. Meanwhile, I directly answer all of your objections, and you respond by repeating them. Oh, and calling me not smart enough to grasp your simplistic EVIDENCE.

My guess is that you don’t even read through what I say. You probably read the first line then go to sleep. Seriously, I’ve tried really hard to explain concepts having to do with research design, standards of evidence, burden of proof, and ways of proving this conjecture with lots of historical analogies and hedgehogs. Nope. Nothing. You’re so sure of your EVIDENCE that nothing else matters.

Ridiculous.

That's why it's called faith.

NikkiLikeChikki
@proposed time control is quite long. 90+5

First three moves are book given to the engines. My Stockfish analyzes Bc5 as +1.1 after chewing on it a bit. It’s a small edge, but certainly not winning, and when colors were reversed it was drawn.

One thing of note that’s relevant. The contempt on the software is set high on Stockfish. This means that it is trying to maximize the probability of winning, not drawing. Leela has no contempt setting. Her AI training doesn’t allow for it. She *always* tries to maximize her chances of winning.

One could argue that this could contribute to SF’s loss, and you’d probably be right, but that begs the question of the definition of “best response.” What exactly does that mean? Is best response the one that maximizes the chance of winning or minimizes the chance of losing? You tell me because I really don’t know and they don’t always lead to the same move being played.
ponz111

Nikki I DID NOT SAY

 any strong player would

have found that move.

I am saying correspondence players at the highest levels likely would have found that move if they were forced into that position I am saying under correspondence conditions I  would probably   have   found that move.  The motive is not knew to me and I know how to force some games into a split position. 

I have several times found the right continuation that the best chess engines could not find. and without a chess engine

. The main reason  the hundreds of players  did not find that move is they were not as strong as the best correspondence players. But there are other reasons also. 

One of your problems is you ae not strong enough at chess to see these things

That whole variation of the Ruy Lopez is inferior and Stockfish did not

 find the best moves in that variation

.I am guessing Stockfish was programmed wrong  as an earlier version

 lost to Alpha Zero in  a similar way?

NikkiLikeChikki
@patriot - yeah, the “proven” comment is the last straw. It is EVIDENCE that he’s truly gone off the rails. It’s just breathtakingly absurd.
NikkiLikeChikki
@ponzie - it doesn’t matter that it’s an inferior opening. Think about it for a second. Sure the opening wasn’t great, but whatever advantage Leela had, she just flushed down the toilet with that move, at least according to Stockfish. And it was, as I said, played four months ago on the latest version of the software. I guess you don’t actually read the whole posts.

And saying a novelty would’ve definitely been found on move 8 by a correspondence player is just obnoxiously presumptuous.

Why am I even talking to you anymore? I mean you actually believe that there is proof that UFOs ... I mean chess is a draw.
ponz111

Nikki  one pf the weakness of some engines is that they are forced to play bad openings.

Being forced t play  Black side of 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3, Bb5  Bc5?! Gives it close to a losing position..

Being forced to play Black in the Dutch gives the best engines a losing position.

Being forced to play Black in this Center Counter line  1. e4  d5  2. exd5  Qxd5  3. Nc3   Qd6 also gives a losing position.  As you become stronger in chess you will realize that "book"is  not  " gawd". 

I would love to start every game with a plus 1.1 advantage--then I would beat even more GMs. 

 

ponz111

Nkki again you show a lack of chess knowledge.  One of he top correspondence players would have found that move.

And it does ,matter that it was an inferior opening.

Why do you say Leela flushed that advantage down the toilet with her move 8? Did you miss that she won   that game and her move 8i was a very nice move???

ponz111

GMprop is correct. In the Ruy Lopez the 3rd move with 3. ....Bc5 by Black is terrible. Without that move--the rest would not have fallen in place fallen in  place for the dramatic and incredible attack that ensued.

I would add that there are millions of positions where there are several best moves--all equally good. 

But for purpose of this forum we are defining "best move" as any move that is not an error that changes the ultimate result of the game to a worse result. [from a draw to a loss or from a win to a draw or a loss]

There are several possible definitions of "best move" which could be used but for this forum we decided to use the definition mentioned.

Here is a position-White to move--where there are several possible best moves.

 

pfren
GMproposedsolutions έγραψε:

re: the infamous move #8 in bishop sac between Lc0 and Stockfish. I looked at the game. Would be nice to know the time controls and whether an opening book was disallowed. In my opinion, I believe for black, the 3...Bc5  Ruy Lopez Classical Variation should never be played (at least by an engine with the intent to win). Go analyze and tell me if I am wrong. One bad move early on sets it up.

re: the word "forced" I used earlier. This was meant in the normal sense, not of one with a strict and unbending definition. I thought of wasting some words to make certain the word wouldn't be pulled out and stomped on but figured everyone would know what it means. If I say a cop forced someone out of a car and the cop didn't actually physically do it but managed by some other threatening action, the word forced would still be applicable.

 

There is nothing wrong with the 3...Bc5 variation. But the wheel will not be re-invented- after 4.c3 Black should play something less silly than the highly antipositional line played by Stockfish in that game ( a bishop stuck at c8 and a rook at a8 for almost all the game). 

Rocky64
MichaelMarmorstein wrote:
Rocky64 wrote:

True or False Your IQ is higher than a hedgehog's.

Many people here will answer, "Probably true". 

Correct because a hypothetical hedgehog could be VERY smart. 

Exactly! There could be millions of hedgehogs in the world and all it takes is one genius hedgehog to disprove the claim that your IQ is higher. That means the only way to know that you're smarter is to give an IQ test to every hedgehog that exists. Otherwise you have no proof that your IQ is higher. And without this proof, nobody knows if it's true that they are smarter than hedgehogs.

drm4k_md

Draw!

ponz111

Rocky64 and Michael Marmorstein

you gave a wonderful analogy to one of the arguments quite a few here are making!tongue.png

I would add there are billions of galaxies which might have planets with hedgehogs and no one knows if there might be one hedgehog with a higher IQ?

krazykat1975

I wonder what Sonics IQ is, then???

ponz111

The Ruy Lopez line with 3. ... Bc5 gives White a big practical advantage.  It was enough to defeat that one version of Stockfish. However I don't know if 3. ... Bc5  could end in a draw by a better chess engine than Stockfish?

Rocky64
ponz111 wrote:

I would add there are billions of galaxies which might have planets with hedgehogs and no one knows if there might be one hedgehog with a higher IQ?

Why, yes, this hedgehog could already have solved chess but thought it was too trivial to share the results with us!

ponz111

Here is a very quick and casual analysis . of the Ruy  3. ... Bc5 line. Of course if I had the position as White after 3. ... Bc5 in a correspondence game--I might use weeks or days to find my 4th move continuation.

 

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

i have a question ponzie. in 100 games, how many would one side (assuming white ?...1st move advantage ?) hafta win to convince one that chess is not a draw. 100-0-0...90-0-10...etc ?

a/o can feel free (feeling free feels sooo good !) to answer.