True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BCYoPZMcs8

@optimissed

Pawn moves can’t be retracted, and it is impossible to “lose a move” by triangulation involving only the knights.

If the following is the case (and of course I think it’s unlikely, but I cannot prove that it is impossible) that the first pawn move unbalances your structure such that the other side can take advantage, and that the first knight move also leaves you at a disadvantage due to the asymmetry, then you could be in zugzwang.

Until chess is “solved”, all possibilities exist.

If you don’t believe me about the knights, try to triangulate using only knights in such a way that the original position is restored but with black to move.

Yes, but in order to do that you must move a pawn. You cannot retreat the pawn.

Every pawn move creates an unrepairable weakness in the structure.

So perhaps after a weakening pawn move, AlphaZero10 can order the black side in such a way as you take advantage of the first revealed weakness.

1.e4

AlphaZero10 “omg look at the weakened d3 and f3 squares plus undefended pawn, lol noob. Should have left the pawn on e2. 1….d6, mate in 77.”

I mean, of course probably not. But I. don’t think you can rule it out! Chess wasn’t designed for an outcome, they just made a bunch of rules and strung pieces out there and hoped it’s a interesting game.

Pawn moves may create irreparable weaknesses, but also not moving a pawn can create an irreparable weakness, such as giving up control of the space on the board. I think the implication that black would have some sort of starting advantage (or that white could only have an advantage by making a knight move) is very interesting though.

I coached kids for a few years, you might be surprised how many started with the (difficult for me to shake) assumption that black had the advantage because “You get to see what white does”.

Every class it seemed had 1 or 2 with this idea.

Yes, Korchnoi I think was one of those. I didn’t really want to cut off any fledgling Korchnois!

There is a chess variant I used a couple of times I forget exactly how to set it up but it involved some immobile pawns in the middle and a black and white knight outside, the advantage was definitely with the side that moved second.

Optimissed: it is possible (albeit unlikely), until proven otherwise. The 'triangulation' argument doesn't hold up, since such moves may lose critical tempi and be suboptimal. Besides, its usually not possible to return the game to a perfectly balanced/symmetrical state anyway, so that makes no sense. I do think the game is probably a forced draw though because a) one side usually needs a significant advantage in either material or dynamics to get a forced win in an endgame, b) it is often difficult to avoid your opponent being able to trade off pieces to simplify and lead to 'draw-ish' positions, c) 3rd repeat and the 50 move rule

By the laws of Math, yes. - White has a small edge at start, which is declining as you go further - well... that's it.

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Optimissed your argument is an argument against zugzwang in general, like how can there possibly be zugzwang since I always have a king and can lose a move.

Zugzwang does exist. If white is in zugzwang at the beginning of the game then he will be at a disadvantage just like either side at any other point in the game when they are in zugzwang.

It’s just that it is a vanishingly small chance that in a game with so much possibility that isn’t designed that way, that it just so happens white is in zug.

But you could design a game like chess, but in such a way that the first player stays in zugzwang and any move is a loss with perfect play. There so nothing impossible about it.

I made this argument in a response to the guy arguing about endgame tablebases, that there are so many endings discovered as forced wins for white that it is just a matter of time until AI discovers a force to one of those, pointing out that there are drawn endgames and endgames with zugzwang…. you can’t just assume that because 2 rooks beat a king that there is a a forced path to 2 rook advantage. Zugzwang for white a fun way to point out the uncertainty involved in the starting position.

I think the time limit is very small in the computer matches so they do not get to process games close to their full abilities. That may account for the wins and loses, perhaps games would all be ties if they had more time for analysis. I also wonder if the game between correspondence players using computer assistance are mostly ties because the humans don't want to risk aggressive but maybe flawed lines. Could it be that more powerful programs will eventually be able to get wins against the more conservative play engendered by the human factor of the correspondence players?

But 1. ... d6 weakens c6 and e6.

Go is a game that avoids the issue of draws entirely. Every game is decisive (at least in the Chinese ruleset - Japanese rulesets permit a mutual repetition in multiple ko positions]. Komi (a scoring handicap) is chosen as a non-integer to ensure and a decisive result and its value is chosen so that there is close to equal chances for each side to win (with it being unclear which actually has the advantage with a popular choice of komi).

I say everyone in the entire world plays and then we make a poll on who won and what color he/she is.

Funny!

Crystalline solids, or crystals, have distinctive internal structures that in turn lead to distinctive flat surfaces, or faces.Crystalline solids, or crystals, have distinctive internal structures that in turn lead to distinctive flat surfaces, or faces.

!SCIENCE!

If you had a Database of every possible move to conclusion; mate or draw (good luck with that as I suspect it is infinite) and then try to find the subset of those lines which regardless of opponents moves only led to draws and where white could not win in any variation (again good luck with that as I suspect it would be an infinite set); you should be able to establish the veracity of this conjecture.  I suspect that you may as well ask what is the highest prime number; though that also is conjecture. We don't know what the Perfect first move is...at least we know some of the primes.....unless their is something wrong with our understanding of number theory. My suspicion is the conjecture is correct...though I may be wrong..