True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

Not only do I not "probably mean" that. I disagree with the significance of your observations. It may be true that such a rating difference exists, and may also be true that White is generally better prepared. It is also true that it is easier to prepare the White side. Nonetheless, those factors are not the most significant ones, IMO.

My meaning is simply this: there are openings where White wins more than 50%.

I do offer the additional points that 1) the Fried Liver Attack is unsound, and yet 2) even a well-prepared Black opponent may find the defense difficult.

In my database, there are 31 games in which I played the Black side. I lost 16, won 13, and drew 2. That's still more than 50% wins for White. My win-loss ratio has not remained constant. I am turning the tide towards more wins than losses. Most of those games were blitz.

As White, I have scored 80% wins.

My best game from the Black side was a correspondence game in which I invested well-over two hours per move during a sequence of five or six moves. 

 

In other words, the Fried Liver Attack is theoretically unsound, but practically very useful except at the highest levels. It scores well because it is easier to attack than to defend.

With best play from both sides, I think the Fried Liver Attack is a draw.

noone said fried liver attack is unsound for white, even modern chess engines find it dangerous for black. the thing is GMs dont play it because after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 (already uncommon for eliete level) 3...Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5.exd5 black normally defends with 5...Na5

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5

stockfish 4 still wants to play 6.Nxd7 +0.66 (30 minutes, 2.7 billion nodes) 5...Nxd5 doesn't look like a good choice for black indeed!

I did.

Sounds like a good contest could happen between  Yekatrinas and Ziryab!

On another note: Some players say "what if there is one of those positions which are hard or impossible to analyze and that position is the one that comes directly from the starting position. And that is the one position which is winning for White? " {or they say something like this]

Also mentioned is there are umpteen many moves just for the first 5 moves for each side.  However these moves have all been examined and there is no sign that any will lead to a win.

Really, if someone pretty well understands chess and chess patterns and the evolution of chess, he will see that, for sure, chess is a draw with best play.

I think most ppl would probably agree that chess is a draw (in 2013) with best play - but will it be a draw if engines can get pushed to, say, elo 5000 ? Only time will tell....(and i love the thought of the future) !  

ponz, you are leading the discussion in circles by equivocating between whether chess is "probably or almost certainly" a draw or "absolutely certainly a draw".

You've said elsewhere that you accept that there is no proof, but that you think there's extremely good evidence (implying there are very good reasons for believing it's extremely likely to be a draw), and then you go and say things like "will see that, FOR SURE, chess is a draw with best play" [emphasis added]. If you don't have a proof, it would be much clearer if you said "almost certainly a draw", or something else that doesn't indicate you think you have absolute certainty, or am I misunderstanding you and perhaps you do actually believe it's 100% certain and literally impossible for it not to be true even though we have no proof and no tablebase solution?

Hmmm.. In my book this is just two-knight variation of Italian..

I just challenged Yekatrinas and she refuses. She seems to prefers guys with baseballcaps that play e5... Like that I can also get a high score here..

I set up the game. Unrated. Three days per move.

Fegatello Attack in the Two Knights Defence: "an extensively analyzed variation that favours White. It was known to the 16th-century Italian masters and the name is Italian for a piece of liver, perhaps implying that the sacrifice of White's knight is like a slice of liver used as bait in a trap."

David Hooper and Kenneth Whyld, The Oxford Companion to Chess (1996).

Viewing this discussion, it seems like a good portion of it has lost focus on what the original question is or doesn't seem to understand it.

Here is what can be said that is backed up by 100% facts.

Chess is a win for White if with best play, Black cannot defend against check mate. In other words, the beginning position is mate in xx moves. Chess is a win for Black if White cannot defend against mate. Otherwise it is a draw

Chess is not solved. Therefore, there is room for doubt

Here is evidence that chess is a draw but does not PROVE anything

* At top GM levels, draws happen very frequently at a very high level

* At top levels, computers are playing to more and more draws relative to wins for either side

* At top human/computer levels, more and more draws are being played

* No one has discovered a line that Black is obliged to play into that provides a win for White.

Here is some weaker evidence that points to the drawishness of chess

* There are many positions in the endgame where White might have a significant material advantage but not be able to win the game.

* Black has drawing outlets in three-fold repition and stalemate to achieve a draw. 

Here is opinion 

* I've never seen a GM non-jokingly claim that chess is a win for White while many hae opined that it is, in fact, a draw.

So, I feel safe in saying that chess is a draw but would readily admit that it is not proven. If we had a bet where I had to pay $100 if chess was proven to be a win for White and receive $1 if chess was proven to be a draw, I would readily take the drawing side of the bet.

Ok u guys still didnt answer My question, so what about the ratio for white.

If a Win is a Point and a draw is a half point. What advantage has white in top Level play?

Also what about the queen endgames, the wikipedia article stats that in 43 of cases the side who has the first move wins

Eric Even if u were right, why risk 100 Dollars for 1 ?

We may disagree on the merits of the Fried Liver Attack, but we agree on the merits of this post.

Eric Fleet made a very nice post and I also agree with his post.

To answer a question, for me personally I think there is better than a 99.9% chance that in "reality" chess is a draw. That is very close to being certain.  Therefore I will actually say chess is a draw.  However it is not proven in a math way such as using a 32 piece tablebase.

I agree with Eric Fleet although he may not be 99.9% certain like I am.

Well-stated, EricFleet. However, your second point is not clear, because I have seen some state that drawing percentages are actually lower between the highest computers (even if higher among centaurs, which I haven't heard anybody dispute).

Additionally, one reason for a bit more doubt than would have seemed warranted in the past is that tablebases have shown us some positions (such as Q+P vs Q discussed earlier) that were previously thought to be draws but are actually wins, and these positions are beyond the comprehension of people, since nobody can explain exactly what determines which of those are wins or draws other than by pointing to a tablebase. We don't know how common such positions are in general, because it is only tablebases that allow us to discover these kinds of positions when they are beyond the horizon of a chess computer. It will be interesting to see what surprises turn up once progress is made on 8-piece tablebases, but for now, I think the lesson of these sorts of findings is that which mathematics teaches us: even the experts are sometimes wrong about things they pretty much all agree on.

[Before somebody misinterprets what I said above, I do in fact believe a draw is by far the most likely result. Nothing I said above is at all in conflict with that.]

sapientdust. recognize that name. have I seen you on chessity?

I Disagree in some openings i believe and maybe My memory fails me, white is winning 40 percent for example and Black 30 percent.

So white actually wins 30 percent more often than black.

pefect play vs. perfect play....=draw