True or false? Chess will never be solved! why?

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fburton
chessmstrmate wrote:

First Class Gobbledygook! 

Yes, complete and utter Gödeldybook.

watcha
Erik-the-Viking wrote:

Anyone ever see the Big Bang ? Anyone ? Anyone at all ?

You can deny the established results of physics at will. It is not against the law. There is free speach.

You can deny the established results of physics AND still call your viewpoint scientific in the following case:

You submit a theory which can account for the known facts of physics at least as well as established physics, plus on or more of the following is true: there are additional facts which your theory can explain; it can explain the known facts with better precision; or it can predict facts that are not predicted by the current theory and those facts are testable experimentally and indeed are tested experimentally.

watcha

Let me give you an example:

You can argue, that the Big Bang can not exist because the world was created by God six thousand years ago.

Now, starting from this premise, calculate how the spectrum of the cosmic microvawe background should look like, with at least the precision as the established theory ( that assumes a Big Bang ) does.

SmyslovFan
watcha wrote:

Let me give you an example:

You can argue, that the Big Bang can not exist because the world was created by God six thousand years ago.

Now, starting from this premise, calculate how the spectrum of the cosmic microvawe background should look like, with at least the precision as the established theory ( that assumes a Big Bang ) does.

It takes a special kind of mind to see this as an example relating to the question of whether computers will solve chess.

zborg

Indeed, He's So Special.

And he's (apparently) already answered this question, earlier this year --  http://www.chess.com/blog/watcha/limits-of-quantum-computing-in-solving-chess

But (apparently) no one was listening, at that time.

Iluvsmetuna

Did the universe ever start ? Maybe for those believing that anything created must have a beginning. Who is there to say the universe had to be created ? Elementary stuff my dear Watson.

watcha

Please. Speak about the possibility of solving chess.

I want to learn new things.

Iluvsmetuna

The problem with chess is that it is too boring. So the solution is obvious.

watcha
Erik-the-Viking wrote:

The problem with chess is that it is too boring. So the solution is obvious.

Why are you in this thread?

Iluvsmetuna
I'm not, I don't even exist.
watcha

Case closed. Period.

watcha

For curiosity's sake ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_memory ):

So ENIAC, the first real computer already had 10^200 states ( 20 ten digit decimal numbers have 200 decimal digits, each digit representing 10 possible states ).

The halting problem of even this stone age computer is unsolvable by any practical computer that can ever be built.

This is a warning sign that theoretical limits are for real and someone not familar with them can commit big mistakes. This is why I say that one should know some basic facts about the limits of computation in order to be able to attack the problem of solving chess.

watcha

I think that chess on a 5 x 6 board is solvable by current technology:

Why 5 x 6 board? Because there are 5 non pawn pieces that have to be placed on the base ranks, and you need at least two empty ranks to be able to push a pawn by two squares in the starting position. So this game already has the feeling of chess ( apart from castling - you have to add an other file with a rook for castling to make sense ).

It would be instructive to solve this toy model of chess completely and draw conclusions from the solution.

TBentley

3x4 chess has been solved, 4x4 chess has been solved up to nine pieces, and one variant (Gardner minichess, identical setup as watcha's board with one less empty rank) of 5x5 chess has been weakly solved.

A variant called Chess Attack uses watcha's board.

DiogenesDue
chessmstrmate wrote:

There is a Noughts & Crosses/Tic-Tac-Toe Position that even All the Worlds most Powerful Computers together Cannot Solve! 

How many People would like Me to Post the Position ? and how Much would you bet Me that I am Wrong ?

We don't care...and the ARB chess system is a sham.

Jion_Wansu
watcha wrote:
Tapani wrote:

No, since stockfish only works with evaluations (win probabilities of some sort). A solution would be "moves e4, e4, c4, Nf3, g3 draws, other moves lose". Or when asked to demonstrate a win, it would show how to forcefully acheive a position that is heuristically deemed as a win (like a rook up in a quiet position).

It just occured to me that a quiet position with a rook up can be a draw, so if Stockfish knows all too well that it is a win, then Stockfish is wrong.

Stockfish actually happens to think it is a win:

 

This shows that heuristics can always leak.

Even if I accept that there are unshakable heuristics, these can not reduce the search space in a significant enough way.

This is a draw

Jion_Wansu

Actually, chess has already been solved. Chess will always be a draw when both play the best moves!

Jion_Wansu
chessmstrmate wrote:
Jion_Wansu wrote:
watcha wrote:
Tapani wrote:

No, since stockfish only works with evaluations (win probabilities of some sort). A solution would be "moves e4, e4, c4, Nf3, g3 draws, other moves lose". Or when asked to demonstrate a win, it would show how to forcefully acheive a position that is heuristically deemed as a win (like a rook up in a quiet position).

It just occured to me that a quiet position with a rook up can be a draw, so if Stockfish knows all too well that it is a win, then Stockfish is wrong.

Stockfish actually happens to think it is a win:

 

This shows that heuristics can always leak.

Even if I accept that there are unshakable heuristics, these can not reduce the search space in a significant enough way.

This is a draw

There is a Rook Sac! 

Where is the rook sac? Black can just move king all day long and depending on whose time is lower, loses...

Jion_Wansu
chessmstrmate wrote:
Jion_Wansu wrote:
watcha wrote:
Tapani wrote:

No, since stockfish only works with evaluations (win probabilities of some sort). A solution would be "moves e4, e4, c4, Nf3, g3 draws, other moves lose". Or when asked to demonstrate a win, it would show how to forcefully acheive a position that is heuristically deemed as a win (like a rook up in a quiet position).

It just occured to me that a quiet position with a rook up can be a draw, so if Stockfish knows all too well that it is a win, then Stockfish is wrong.

Stockfish actually happens to think it is a win:

 

This shows that heuristics can always leak.

Even if I accept that there are unshakable heuristics, these can not reduce the search space in a significant enough way.

This is a draw

There is a Rook Sac! 

It's a draw because after 50 moves without a pawn move, it's a draw...

SaxonViolence

In Theory, Chess has a Finite number of Games and each and every one could be worked through to its inevitable conclusion.

{Assuming that both players legitimately try to Win and don't go through endless permutations simply to boost the number of possible games...}

However, even if you built a Computer that was as big as the Universe itself and set it to exhaustively play every possible game...

It wouldn't solve Chess within the lifetime of the universe itself.

I submit that is Insolveable...

For all Practical Purposes.


Saxon Violence