USCF's annoying suttelties - Chess Forums

LavaRook

Jul 25, 2010

0

#1

So...you guys might not even believe the situation but im going to say it anyways

Recently OTB, I just played a game in which i got to the rare ending of K+R vs. K+N where I was on the inferior (K+N) side. I tried to claim a draw by drawn position, but that wasnt valid. Oh, and by the way, I was down to about 8 seconds of time left in the second, final TC and was practically moving within the delay-so insane time pressure here and my opponent didn't want a draw with his some 25 mins left. (and we were the last game left in the section that day)

I obviously did not record the moves on my scoresheet as a result. Guess what? My clock has a move counter so I was just looking at that for the 50 move rule which legally started on move 84 said the TD but I thought it was like move 85. So at move 135, I attempt to claim a draw by the 50 move rule and the TD asks me since what move. I say move 85, but he says nope thats incorrect so that was invalid. AND I couldve claimed a draw by 3 move rep too but that was invalidated as well b/c I didn't have scoresheet proof. BUT How THE .... would I HAVE SCORESHEET PROOF-IVE been living on the delay since like move 75 and my opp was using a monroi and Im not allowed to look at it to show MY proof for some reason?!??

Anyways, I took a psychological blow and the next move after my claim was invalidated I moved my knight where it got skewered. TECHNICALLY, I can still claim a draw here b/c the knight isn't officially taken yet and its been past 50 moves but this wasn't allowed b/c of my 'false' claim a move ago and so I was forced to resign a dead drawn game. He said that I need to bring it to the attention of the TD but since we were the last game and the TD was watching, I assumed he would know...

AHHH the pain...so can someone just explain these suttleties and this crap please? I believe deserved a draw. ANd this tourney game ended at like 11 and started at 4:30...I made the blunder out of fatigue and the psych blow...Ugh...

Thankfully, the TD is giving me a .5 bye for the round, but the game is still going to affect my rating a bit. Im a 1610 and this was against an 1800....and I was black

blizzsorc

Jul 25, 2010

0

#2

The question is: did you play with Fisher incremental time (additional time of 30 seconds) or not?

If one player is not required to keep score he must as soon as either flag has fallen, update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on the chessboard. You may use your opponent’s scoresheet then. When both players have not enough time left on their clock the TD or an assistant have to note the moves on a scoresheet.

When claiming a draw you'll have to prove it. You could as well have asked a friend of your's to keep score when you are unable to keep score yourself!

blizzsorc

Jul 25, 2010

0

#3

"If one player is not required to keep score..."

For example if there are less than 5 minutes left on his clock.

LegoPirateSenior

Jul 26, 2010

0

#4

LavaRook wrote:

Recently OTB, I just played a game in which i got to the rare ending of K+R vs. K+N where I was on the inferior (K+N) side. I tried to claim a draw by drawn position, but that wasnt valid. Oh, and by the way, I was down to about 8 seconds of time left in the second, final TC and was practically moving within the delay-so insane time pressure here and my opponent didn't want a draw with his some 25 mins left.

There is no "drawn position" claim possible, and with the delay clock you cannot claim insufficient losing chances, either -- you have to play it out.

I obviously did not record the moves on my scoresheet as a result. Guess what? My clock has a move counter so I was just looking at that for the 50 move rule which legally started on move 84 said the TD but I thought it was like move 85. So at move 135, I attempt to claim a draw by the 50 move rule and the TD asks me since what move...

Here's the scoop how to handle such situation in time trouble: as soon as it is clear to you that the position is drawn, stop the clock, declare to the TD that you intend to invoke the 50-move rule, and ask for help in counting the moves. That last part is important; without it, the TD is not obligated to do anything.

Once asked for help, the TD (who agrees that 50-move draw is possible, which in this case was obvious) has basically two options: (a) count the moves (or have someone deputized to do so) or (b) set you up with a move-counting clock. In the first case, the useful thing is that you do not have to count the moves yourself; in fact, neither player has the right to know how many moves have been played -- the TD will count them and tell you when the game is drawn. In the second case, the clock move counter would be reset to zero, so there would be no doubt when the 50 moves were over.

All the above comes from the section 14F of the USCF rules (which the TD should have available).

AND I couldve claimed a draw by 3 move rep too but that was invalidated as well b/c I didn't have scoresheet proof. BUT How THE .... would I HAVE SCORESHEET PROOF-IVE been living on the delay since like move 75 and my opp was using a monroi and Im not allowed to look at it to show MY proof for some reason?!??

Note that once one player has less than 5 minutes on the clock, USCF excuses both players from scorekeeping. Your opponent might have kept the score, but was not obligated to do so. In any case, you'd have to do update the score on your own time. Not good, if you were already running on delay (btw, scoresheet updates are done only if each player has at least 5 minutes left). Finally, the opponent is not obligated to provide his scoresheet on your request, but must provide it, if required to do so by the TD.

In time trouble, you don't need a score to claim triple repetition of the position (note: not a three move rep!). Observation by an impartial witness or by the TD should be sufficient, but you need to claim it properly (just before making a move that would produce a threepeat). Relying on observation is always a bit iffy.

... legally started on move 84 said the TD but I thought it was like move 85. So at move 135, I attempt to claim a draw by the 50 move rule and the TD asks me since what move. I say move 85, but he says nope thats incorrect so that was invalid...

... TECHNICALLY, I can still claim a draw here b/c the knight isn't officially taken yet and its been past 50 moves but this wasn't allowed b/c of my 'false' claim a move ago ...

The invalidation of the first claim and disallowing the second make no sense to me, but without being sure about all the details, I cannot have a firm opinion.

I hope this has been helpful...

nimzo5

Jul 26, 2010

0

#5

don't get in time pressure- it's like being down material with no compensation.

LavaRook

Jul 26, 2010

0

#6

Thanks a lot for the responses :) I think my mistake here was not informing the TD about the last pawn move/capture (and I was playing the last game of the night and so the TD was right there watching...) to start the count and b/c my clock had a counter, I simply used that to gauge where I should be able to claim a draw but I never really knew I had to inform the TD in order to claim these draws.

And I actually did ask the TD to record the moves, but I wasn't allowed to look at the scoresheet to know exactly when the last capture (which was a capture of my h-pawn, turning the game into K+R vs. K+N) occured so I kinda assumed it had occured on move 85-ish and waited the 50 moves accordingly, The only thing is that I didn't know I needed to inform the TD that I intended to invoke the 50-move rule.