http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/why-isnt-copying-from-an-opening-explorer-during-a-game-considered-cheating?page=1
using "game explorer" with online chess: questionable?
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external help ie non human mind by players in a game is cheating before as a study aid andafter as an analysis tool is cool but in game nah thatswrong and it robs both players of a fair match
Choosing the best move based on win percentage or popularity is a really excellent way to lose. A move could be scoring 80% and everyone plays it until Carlsen completely debunks it.
You can learn a ton about an opening by using game explorer (or better data sources).
I agree with you. Chess.com really ought not to allow it to be used during games.
dillydream wrote:
I agree with you. Chess.com really ought not to allow it to be used during games.
Sure and then when people play out 18 moves from some Kasparov-Polgar game, chess.com can ban them for cheating.
Correspondence chess is a seperate type of game from OTB. As a result of these extra perks, you play at a higher level than you normally would, which helps your skill development.
You could similarly say that the analysis board is questionable because you wouldn't have a board to test variations with in an OTB game.
dillydream wrote:
I agree with you. Chess.com really ought not to allow it to be used during games.
Ok, so assuming that chess.com agrees with you, how will they enforce this rule?
By removing the option. If the word "Explore" were not there, you could not click on it.
Oct 4, 2013
0
#10
Databases and Their Discontents
Ever since the dawn of civilization, humans have sought help in games of chess that did not conclude in a single sitting. Such help takes many forms. Sometimes the help is actively encouraged. Other times it is forbidden.
When I was young, top level chess tournaments and world championship matches were characterized by adjournments. After many hours of play, a competitor would seal a move, eat a small meal, and go to sleep. While he slept, teams of seconds would labor through the night, analyzing the likely continuations. After a night of sleep and a hearty breakfast, the player would spend the morning with his seconds learning the results of overnight research. He returned to the game fully prepared for the next stages.
When I started playing correspondence chess, I began to value another sort of assistance: reference books. While playing my games, I would pore through every chess book within reach looking for comparable positions. Playing better correspondence chess became a principal motive for acquiring certain books. The benefits of this research spilled over into my non-aided games. More often I found myself playing openings that I had studied in great detail with practical application to some game in progress.
The emergence of database software sped up the research process. ...
When I was young, top level chess tournaments and world championship matches were characterized by adjournments. After many hours of play, a competitor would seal a move, eat a small meal, and go to sleep. While he slept, teams of seconds would labor through the night, analyzing the likely continuations. After a night of sleep and a hearty breakfast, the player would spend the morning with his seconds learning the results of overnight research. He returned to the game fully prepared for the next stages.
When I started playing correspondence chess, I began to value another sort of assistance: reference books. While playing my games, I would pore through every chess book within reach looking for comparable positions. Playing better correspondence chess became a principal motive for acquiring certain books. The benefits of this research spilled over into my non-aided games. More often I found myself playing openings that I had studied in great detail with practical application to some game in progress.
The emergence of database software sped up the research process. ...
Oct 4, 2013
0
#11
Thanks for the link to the other thread. Glad I'm not the only one who was wondering this, but I think this comment by Remellion in the other thread sums it up:
Taking the highest win percentage move doesn't do much. Even allowing for the law of large numbers and regression to the mean or whatnot (translation: assume the database is somewhat reliable) that move could lead to an incredibly technical endgame or a pyrotechnical tactical mess, and you (or your opponent) might not be able to navigate that well. What works for many people lots of the time may not be good for you in a game. Knowing which moves lead to middlegames you can handle is more important than bandwagoning.
"All openings are playable but they are not all playable for you." - GM Michael Adams
I think the point about Correspondence Chess being inherently different is also important. It makes sense that (non-engine) research would be OK for correspondence chess and not for live chess.
I still don't think that Opening Explorer should be allowed for Live Chess, which seems like it should be similar to OTB. Is it?
dillydream wrote:
By removing the option. If the word "Explore" were not there, you could not click on it.
How can you tell if someone is using a database or remembering a famous line?
@stephen, no tools of any kind are allowed for live chess.
dillydream wrote:
By removing the option. If the word "Explore" were not there, you could not click on it.
O, so when u click on "explore" it takes u to game explorer? Honestly, I never knew that. But even if chess.com removed the "xplore" button next 2 the game, ppl can still access game explorer from the Learn tab.
Oct 4, 2013
0
#14
Scottrf wrote:
dillydream wrote:
By removing the option. If the word "Explore" were not there, you could not click on it.
How can you tell if someone is using a database or remembering a famous line?
I think dillydream's point is that, while it might be impossible to catch, it shouldn't be encouraged by having the link right there. That said, this discussion has made me lean toward favoring (or at least tolerating) the link, since "Online [non-Live] Chess" is effectively Correspondence Chess. Perhaps there could be the option to disable it.
Scottrf wrote:
@stephen, no tools of any kind are allowed for live chess.
Good, that's what I was more worried about.
My point is, why have rules you can't police?
Besides (and more importantly), being able to research while you play is one of the main benefits/draws of correspondence style chess. It's at the heart of it.
Oct 4, 2013
0
#16
Scottrf wrote:
My point is, why have rules you can't police?
Besides, being able to research while you play is one of the main benefits/draws of correspondence style chess. It's at the heart of it.
Fair point.
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Because correspondence chess has always allowed the use of books. The old joke back in the postcard days was that the player with the bigger library would win. Our "online" games simply are a digital version of an old traditional way of playing chess. Yes it is "training wheels" chess for many, although the elite players are trying to mold each game into a masterpiece. Many previous threads on this....
7 weeks ago · Quote · #3
Oct 4, 2013
0
#18
Scottrf wrote:
My point is, why have rules you can't police?
Besides (and more importantly), being able to research while you play is one of the main benefits/draws of correspondence style chess. It's at the heart of it.
I get to that in the link that I posted above ("Databases and Their Discontents"). Indeed, I mention that when these threads pop-up (nearly always when someone unfamiliar with correspondence chess makes this discovery), I nearly always say the same thing:
The research aspect is one of the principal attractions of correspondence chess.
If you want to play OTB, then play OTB. I do.
If you want to play correspondence chess (no matter what strange names ["online"] certain websites like Chess.com use to rename it), then learn the rules and traditions of correspondence chess.
Everytime I see one of these threads about whether database is fair, I long for something else that would be worthwhile: how to use databases effectively. Playing the percentages has been mentioned. Surely there are other strategies.
13.f5
Before I played my ninth move, I had looked forward in the databases and had gone through several games that reached this position. These games were in the spirit of an all out attack on the kingside before Black could finish untangling his pieces on the queenside--the drawback to Black's necessary eighth move.
13.f5 appears in Chess Informant 107 for the first time in three games played by Argentine GM Fernando Peralta. I looked at these games while playing. This research aspect is one of the pleasures of correspondence chess.
Read this annotation in context at http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2013/07/busting-benoni.html
Oct 4, 2013
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#19
The main thing many players use "online" chess for is to learn. The use of Opening Explorer and databases and books to research moves is beneficial to the learning process--its a great way to learn openings. There are many different variants of chess. If you do not like the rules of "online chess" you are free to try another form of chess.
Oct 4, 2013
0
#20
I don't think the question repeatedly arises because people reject the idea of Correspondence Chess. I think most people (particularly new chess players, or those like me who haven't played since elementary school) are simply unfamiliar with the concept and don't recognize it when we see it.
There are various ways this could be made clearer, perhaps with a help link or something. I assume a name change isn't in the cards, but if it had been called Correspondence Chess, I'd have googled that first.
I'm playing my first online chess (turn-based) against a friend. I noticed that at any time, you can click on "Explore" to get a list of next moves, with information on win % and popularity.
On the one hand I think it's a great way to learn how to play, but on the other hand, doesn't it seem a little cheap to be able to look up the best next moves during a game? You could always choose the best moves based on percentage or popularity.
Curious about others' thoughts are on the ethics/sportsmanship of this. Chess.com says that using "Opening Explorer" is allowed, but this popup goes on for quite a while (15+ moves for some variations).