Why are women not as successful as men in chess?

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Raspberry_Yoghurt
_Number_6 wrote:
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:

If the potentials are identical, the first generation of women chess players that started off after women's lib kicked should be playing just like male players.

They just don't. They aren't ostracized anymore, and they still don't become world champs etc. So only explanaton left is biology.

What first generation?  I would suggest that we are still in it as we are barely out of the opening chapters of women's lib and as long as women have a separate title streams that separates women, chess may never be out of it.  The first GM's were the Polgars in 1991.  We're on our third WC since then and only the first WC to be younger than either Susan or Judit.

Some things take time.  The first female lawyer in the United States was called to the bar in 1869.  The first Female Supreme Court Justice was appointed in 1981.

Though, maybe it was biology.

1981 is a long time ago. I take it we can say women's lib was done by then. I'd put in in the 70ies myself.

So why the women don't reach the men's chess levels in that many years?

It's like someone that fram 1981 predicted the apocalypse coming 33 times, and each time says "nah, i was wrong, it's next year". At some point you just realize, it ain't going to happen.

Raspberry_Yoghurt
Elubas wrote:

"BEFORE women's lib you could argue they weren't good at chess becaue they were banned from the tournaments etc. Buf after they got access, this explanation just isnt relevant anymore."

I don't know, I don't think that's totally fair. Men's and women's lifestyles developed depending on their society, which would of course include laws. For example if a woman was banned from an activity, she wouldn't develop a lifestyle around it, and women wouldn't be raised to do so. This wouldn't just immediately disappear as soon as laws changed, because by that time their lifestyles would have already been developed around other things. And consequently, ideas on how to raise girls, would have already been developed around other things. And it's easy to gravitate towards better known customs -- more comfort and predictability, for one thing.

Eventually things can start changing of course, and they do. But it does take time. And it's probably hard to totally eliminate the residue of the past. There are plenty of women that are totally drawn to the traditional gender roles, and I don't think it's a total coincidence that such roles were what they were pretty much totally forced into back then.

(Not that there's anything wrong with deciding that you want to follow a gender role. But you should believe in that decision with your own judgment, rather than let someone else, or society, decide on that for you. You deserve better than that.)

To me, it's just excuses really.

I mean, wonen's lib, it's not like it happened in February 2013 and we need to wait for the dust to settle and so on lol.

Elubas

Well, to use a chess example :) It's like if one of the rules of chess suddenly changed in 1970. It might be drastic enough to make certain established "chess schools" (e.g. the "soviet chess school," or the "nimzowitsch school of thought") to totally change how they do things. They would have hundreds of years of old theory, and have their ideas ingrained, and now they have to throw a large amount of it away if they want to keep playing good chess. You'd have to unlearn your way of doing things, then relearn them, and consequently chess teachers would have to unlearn and relearn how to teach chess. It's hard enough to learn things, let alone start from scratch from that learning. Maybe kids will be totally open to the "new chess" (because they weren't alive before "new chess"), but teachers might have a hard time devising a new way of teaching that would help kids learn the appropriate things.

It's just an example, but lifestyles aren't things you will just change overnight, especially when you've put so much energy into a different one.

Raspberry_Yoghurt
Elubas wrote:

Well, to use a chess example :) It's like if one of the rules of chess suddenly changed in 1970. It might be drastic enough to make certain established "chess schools" (e.g. the "soviet chess school," or the "nimzowitsch school of thought") to totally change how they do things. They would have hundreds of years of old theory, and have their ideas ingrained, and now they have to throw a large amount of it away if they want to keep playing good chess. You'd have to unlearn your way of doing things, then relearn them, and consequently chess teachers would have to unlearn and relearn how to teach chess. It's hard enough to learn things, let alone start from scratch from that learning. Maybe kids will be totally open to the "new chess" (because they weren't alive before "new chess"), but teachers might have a hard time devising a new way of teaching that would help kids learn the appropriate things.

It's just an example, but lifestyles aren't things you will just change overnight, especially when you've put so much energy into a different one.

DiogenesDue
BigKingBud wrote:
btickler wrote

I'll leave that for others to decide.  Enjoy your PBR and porch pontificating...

You're the one getting all hot, and bothered.  Then not following ANYTHING you said up.  Sure signs one has given up on there BS.

If you say so...it's "their", by the way.  Probably would have caught that if you weren't posting in a hurry.

DiogenesDue

August 2014.  New millennium, people.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/gaming-no-longer-a-mans-world-1408464249

bigpoison
_Number_6 wrote:
TurboFish wrote:

Below I quote my post #155 in the "Nigel Short: Women's brains not chess brains" thread. It doesn't mention war specifically, but instead mens' roles as hunters and protectors.  This is from 9 months ago, but I still feel the same.

"I think there are disproportionately low numbers of females (all ages) in chess mainly because they are not as thrilled about chess as the average male.  It seems reasonable that men's typical evolutionary role as hunter/protector would favor both physical and mental agressiveness.  Hence the enthusiasm for cerebral war-games."

Does Nigel Short hunt?  Does he honestly think that because he is a male he is going to be a naturally better hunter than a female?

I suspect his Manchester upbringing has negagted any inate advantage he may have hunting.

Chess is a traditionally male game.  Maybe less so TODAY but not less so even one generation ago.

If it has been a male game passed father to son then it is not surprising that there are more men playing it at every level and is seen as a predominately boys game that holds little interest to girls.  That means more coaches, more masters, more grandmasters and more twits who may have never left the city who think they are better hunters.

Where more females participate the number of successful strong masters that are female trends upwards. This success is not only limited in chess but in every professession and is probably true in hunting as well.

Basically without data to the contrary, I think anyone suggesting that prehistoric evolution has any bearing on chess ability is a Nigel. 

Please, someone post research showing that I am wrong.

I can't even bring wrap my little brain around the combination of "hunter/protector".

If you're off hunting, how the hell are you supposed to protect anything? 

Elubas
power_2_the_people wrote:

Videogames with female protagonists are still in the minority, and even being able to play as a woman is often still considered an optional extra by developers and publishers.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know

Yeah but it's not clear where, if anywhere, the blame should be placed. For example, the developers might just say, they are appealing to the market of male gamers, which may be more lucrative.

So perhaps the blame is on male gamers who don't like female protagonists? Maybe... it just seems like a certain amount of this stuff is inevitable. I mean, if you want to sell girly products, you generally need to associate them with girls, too. You almost have to shut off men in ads for girly products, if you want to get sales, or at least, it would seem that way, and the world seems to operate that way. Girls will want certain products to be associated with femininity. And guys will want certain things to be associated with masculinity. Clearly some of this stuff must be benign since the vast majority of guys and girls are like this at least with certain things. So I dunno, you know, just trying to be open minded, annoying as that is :)

mdinnerspace

Hasbro; the world wide leader of toy manufacturers is coming out with its new "Ken" doll. (Makers of the Barbie doll). The Ken doll will be upgraded to appeal to the male tastes in clothing, which they say has been misunderstood by developers. In a statement, the company said, " we realized boys need their dolls to be more realistic, to look the part".They promised that in the future the Ken line will have all the tech support and available accessories that the Barbie line has enjoyed all these years.

"Eguality is our motto, no longer will boys be 2nd class" is the new slogan, said Hasbro Chairmen C. H. McGillacutty

_Number_6
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:
....

1981 is a long time ago. I take it we can say women's lib was done by then....

Stop being ridiculous.  It was an example of how long it can take for change.  Not the final date of the women's liberation movement.

The fact that we are still recognizing women firsts is a pretty good indicator that it's not done yet.

_Number_6
mdinnerspace wrote:

Hasbro;.... the company said, " we realized boys need their dolls to be more realistic, to look the part".They promised that in the future the Ken line will have all the tech support and available accessories that the Barbie line has enjoyed all these years.

...

Someone didn't train their replacement on the Dolls-For-Boys desk at Hasbro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Joe:_America's_Movable_Fighting_Man 

_Number_6
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:

.

 

 What is that meme saying?  That the only chess masters are those that have become world champion or that astronauts should be good chess players.  There have been LOTS of women chess masters.  In fact, the percentage of female masters is probably not all that different than that of female astronauts even accounting for the small sample sizes.

11% of those who have been to space have been women.  Have any of them been the world's best astronaut? I don't know.  I suppose at the time, Valentina Tershkova probably was because she was the only person in space at the time of her mission.  However she was only the 12th person in space.  I figured women were a write-off after '61 since not one made the cut in the first four launches.

The easiest way to be wrong is to post a meme.  This one is cosmically stupid..



_Number_6
bigpoison wrote:
 

I can't even bring wrap my little brain around the combination of "hunter/protector".

If you're off hunting, how the hell are you supposed to protect anything? 

Shift work. 

Those whose ancestors were the better hunters are today better with the white pieces.  Those who were better defenders, the black pieces. 

_Number_6
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:

Precisely nr 6. There are gazillions of gender differences like that. It's the most likely explanation of the gender gap in chess, ..

Maybe, but the only differences that matter are the ones that are relevant to chess skill.

As an earlier study posted here also indicated that there is no specific male or female brain and only about 6% share only traits from one gender or another.

Are the top 100 players all from the male brain category?  It's possible but I would not be surprised if there was a percentage that wasn't.  Tal and Petrosian certainly thought about chess differently.  Was it wiring?

I'm also not willing to rule out that like piloting a space craft that chess is a learned skill.  With proper education and a lot of work success in chess is attainable by anyone.

mdinnerspace

Wrong

mdinnerspace

Scientific study conducted by whom?

Whomever funded it, with their proposed agenda.

_Number_6
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:

nah, i was wrong, it's next year". At some point you just realize, it ain't going to happen.

Chicago Cubs - World Series Champions 2016.  Put money on it.

_Number_6
mdinnerspace wrote:

Scientific study conducted by whom?

Whomever funded it, with their proposed agenda.

You should remember since you replied to it here.  You can scroll back through the pages just as easily as I.

KingMagikarp

Hey guys, I started this thread...umm I have been thinking and idk but I think us girls could have the advantage and beat men...we just have more important things to care about/think about.  

Happy holidays haha Kiss

dejvidd

Because women let us men to be more succesful.