Why do people play in OTB tournaments with cash prizes?

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Avatar of PatzerKing

Why do people play poker for money?  Why do people play in casinos when they know statiscally they are going to lose?

Avatar of Meadmaker
PatzerKing wrote:

Why do people play poker for money?  Why do people play in casinos when they know statiscally they are going to lose?


I have some familiarity with this phenomenon, having lived with a compulsive gambler.  The answer is that they are delusional and they do not know that they are going to lose.  On some level, they will tell you that of course the odds are against them, but they will assure you that, in their particular case, they managed to get lucky and be slightly ahead.  Of course, they're wrong, but they do talk themselves into believing that the one time that they won a 500 dollar slot jackpot offset the other sixteen hours of play.

If there happens to be at least some tiny bit of skill involved, as in blackjack, they will convince themselves that other, suckers, lose money because they don't know how to play, but that they are beating the house.

It's quite daft, but they do it.  I have no doubt that there are Chess players who do it too.

Avatar of woton

Another reason.   Big money tournaments are sometimes held in cities that I would like to visit.  Usually, the chess hotel rate is low enough that it's cheaper to "play in the tournament" (and take byes in some rounds to do some sightseeing) than to travel to the city on my own.

Avatar of Meadmaker
woton wrote:

Another reason.   Big money tournaments are sometimes held in cities that I would like to visit.  Usually, the chess hotel rate is low enough that it's cheaper to "play in the tournament" (and take byes in some rounds to do some sightseeing) than to travel to the city on my own.

Avatar of DrHoward

I have played and directed in many tournaments with purses over $1000. The year I was most active, my prize winnings, in total, were just about equal to the total entry fees. I have never played for the money, but knowing the money was there improved my quality of competition. The possibility of winning money gave me another reason, on top of rating points, personal satisfaction, and intellectual stimulation, to concentrate and perform my best.

Avatar of ChonleyB

The average tourney player isn't typically in it for the money, because face it... there is no money in chess for the club level player. Nonetheless the local club here usually hosts a number of rated tournaments, most of them costing a mere $5.00 entry fee, prizes based on # of entries. its fun, because you went to the club to play anyway, and if you perform reasonably you might come out ten bucks or more ahead, as well as a few points higher rated. If you lose, then you just paid five bucks for a chess lesson.

And that's how it goes for the majority of us I think. As for the larger purses in the national or world tournaments, consider the level of the players that attend them. this is not a weekend warrior event. The masters, GMs, IMs, & FMs have spent a considerable amount of time at the game, and I think it would be safe to say that for many of them it is a career. Their day job is studying chess, playing chess, talking about chess, then they go to the matches to try and collect a paycheck. If they perform badly, they go hungry. And for the money that matters, the money that pays the rent is seldom found locally. Travel & hotel expenses are involved. Many masters turn to coaching chess or writing chess books to try and keep food on the table. For a master to win a large prize of $500k or more seems much to many, but for the master it is a payoff of 10, 20, or 30 years of work in their chosen career.

If you are an otb tournament player, then you know just how exhausting the tournaments can be. From the pre-game jitters to having your brain sucked dry on the board, it is considered by many to be as much a professional sport as baseball or boxing. The only difference is it's a mental rather than a physical sport, and should in that regard give monetary props to the professional players.

I myself haven't played OTB in years, have had other things in life going on. But the largest tournament I played in was the 2001 Ohio class championship where I won 1st place in the class e section. My prize - a trophy. No cash, but I felt it was a great experience all the same Cool

Avatar of Beachdude67

If you don't live in a medium sized city with a decent chess tournament venue, then you will not be able to compete without incurring significant travel expenses.

Except that I live in the 34th largest metro area in the US and there are no tournaments. I posted this on a separate thread last week where I questioned whether or not the USCF is still relevant.

Whether it is factual or not, there is certainly a lot of resentment towards the USCF. For years they happily took your $50 a year and the only thing you had to show for it was 12 issues of Chess Life and a USCF rating.

The bottom fell out when the internet boom happened and now they aren't the only game in town. And a lot of long-time chess enthusiasts are happy to see it happen, if for no other reason than there is lingering resentment at the USCF having gouged thousands of chessplayers.

Whether it is justifiable or not, there is a sense that the USCF is finally getting their due payback, and thats its about time.

Avatar of SonofaBishop67
Natalia_Pogonina wrote:

 At mixed events amateurs typically pay money to play against/next to pros, thus improving their chess and getting an interesting life experience.

This is true. A few years ago I ticked off an item on my 'Bucket List' (things a person wants to do in life before they kick the bucket) by playing in the 2009 World Open in Philadelphia. I had always wanted to play in a major tournament attended by world class players. To be sure, there were thousands of dollars of cash prizes up for grabs in the class sections, but in complete honesty the thought of taking some of that home never crossed my mind. It was all about the life experience for me; I had never been to Philly (saw the liberty bell while I was there!), and to  see such great players as Gata Kamsky, Joel Benjamin (who was US Champion when I first joined the USCF), and Hikaru Nakamura playing and walking around the hotel lobby, well that was just awesome. I even took advantage of one of the perks of playing in the tournement: free analysis of a game with GM Sam Palatnik! I bought a copy of one of his books which he kindly autographed. I sunk a lot of money in this adventure, and  I finished with 5 points out of 9, a result not displeasing to me. I even encountered some fellow Ohioans I knew from my local club and tournament scene. It was so much fun! Which is why I played, and why I play chess at all, prizes or not.

Avatar of marmo127

I do not know hat this means. (i'm new)

Avatar of IrrationalTiger

GMs don't get "true" free entry as generally entry fee is deducted from winnings, and as GMs basically always place high enough to receive a prize it's roughly the same as paying a full fee.  Think of the waived entry fee as disaster insurance for the GM rather than an actual free entry.  Also, the prizes for open sections don't all come from lower classes, that's really not true...  Tons of patzers choose to play in the open section with the hope of upsetting a GM, and if the tournament was designed in a way that the only prizes were for the top places and not class-based, the payouts would be significantly larger for the winner and high placing players despite a smaller turnout overall (despite the tournament profiting a bit less, which is why it isn't done).  With that being said, keep in mind that also, GMs are professional chess players and deserve to receive some clear benefit from coming to the event.  That's what makes it so ridiculous, as paulgottlieb points out - some bagger beating up 1500s with a fraudulent rating (yes, all the people who win those sections fit this description, don't kid yourself) gets a similar prize as a 2700 GM who places second overall in the Open.  Imagine going to a golf tournament and getting 10,000 dollars for lying about your age so you can get into a younger section while some of the best golfers in the world shoot 20 under your total and get half the money.

Avatar of Meadmaker
Beachdude67 wrote:

If you don't live in a medium sized city with a decent chess tournament venue, then you will not be able to compete without incurring significant travel expenses.

Except that I live in the 34th largest metro area in the US and there are no tournaments.

Host one.

Seriously.  It's easy.  Well, once you have a site, it's easy.  If you can find a place to play, it's a snap to hold a tournament.

Avatar of Beachdude67

Mead, as I understand it you have to be a TD, which requires jumping through some hoops.

Avatar of Meadmaker
Beachdude67 wrote:

Mead, as I understand it you have to be a TD, which requires jumping through some hoops.

You have to send an email saying you want to be a TD.

Really.  That's it.

You also have to take a test, sometime within three years of becoming a TD.  It's an open book test.  You do have to be, and remain, a USCF member. 

 

The biggest thing is that in order to hold a tournament, you have to be approved by an official affiliate, i.e. a chess club that is part of USCF. You would have to contact clubs near you until you found one that would sign you up.  My guess is that would be pretty darned easy.  If there aren't any tournaments nearby, most people would welcome the thought that you might hold one.  (And, you can do what I did, which is to send in an affiliate fee of forty bucks and, voila, you are now an affiliate.  However, when I first started doing this, there's no way I would have paid forty bucks for the privilege. Later, I decided I would.)

The USCF does a horrible job of communicating how to do things, but when all is said and done, it's a very easy process.  They just make it seem hard by not telling anyone.

Avatar of Meadmaker
cookiemonster161140 wrote:
kborg wrote:
cookiemonster161140 wrote:

And USCF fee sucking vampires notwithstanding, where are those tournaments where 80% of entry fees are returned as prizes? That's pure BS.

When I say "tournament" I mean large venue like a hotel or casino with several hundreds of players of all strengths, including titled players.

But I'm not going to spend my life savings to attend such an event. Organizers need to get smart about economics. Better conditions, lower fees, bigger prizes will improve participation. Do the math.

The post above was largely math-less.  Indeed, it's mostly a big vent.

If you don't live in a medium sized city with a decent chess tournament venue, then you will not be able to compete without incurring significant travel expenses.

Instead, play online for free.  And vent judiciously (but not mindlessly) in the forums. The OP is clearly not mindless.  He experiments, and takes polls, and thinks hard about the issue.

Most "local tournaments" do return 80 percent of fees in prizes.  Bigger tourneys have bigger fees and bigger prizes (but in hotel venues).  The economics are different based on, inter alia, the hotel, time of year, city size, TD experience, and publicity.

Yet your post has virtually nothing to do with "the economics of tournaments," except to assert your personal (and penny pinching) preference for "bigger prizes and lower fees."  

And that's your economic argument?  You're being gouged by the USCF, or by the TDs?  

The TDs are hardly making anything in most local cases. And they have to put up with so many eccentric chess personalities.  They clearly earn their money.

Take a chill pill.  Or bake some ganja into your cookies.

Clearly, kborgs's response self-identifies him as a student of Obamanomics.

More tournaments throughout the USA, better venues, bigger prizes, lower entry fees (and more reasonable USCF and state/local federation membership costs) will increase participation. That's so obvious, I'm embarassed for anybody who doesn't get it.

Are you really saying that chess tournament participation will increase as costs to particpate are increased?

What ARE you smoking?


Awesome.  Supply side chess.  Lower fees=bigger prizes.

 

Well, as it turns out, the USCF doesn't actually hold tournaments.  The vast majority of "USCF tournaments" are held by folks like me.  In other words, the entrepeneurs of the Chess world.  Just call me "Joe the TD", and no one at USCF makes me charge anything.  The only fee that the USCF charges is the rating fee, which is 25 cents per game.

 

The world is your oyster, Cookie.  Follow the advice given to BeachDude.  Send that email.  Become a TD.  Then you can hold that low fee, high prize, great facility, tournament that you think other people ought to be holding.

 

However, as with the both the supply siders and the Keynesians that have run our government for a good long time, you might want to make surethat  you have available a very large line of credit.

Avatar of zborg
cookiemonster161140 wrote:
kborg wrote:
 

Clearly, kborgs's response self-identifies him as a student of Obamanomics.

More tournaments throughout the USA, better venues, bigger prizes, lower entry fees (and more reasonable USCF and state/local federation membership costs) will increase participation. That's so obvious, I'm embarassed for anybody who doesn't get it.

Are you really saying that chess tournament participation will increase as costs to particpate are increased?  What ARE you smoking?

Mindlessly quote ad nauseum.  IMAGINE prizes are bigger, entry fees are lower, venues are lavish (and free too).  Insist that whomever points to flaws in your assertations is from the wrong political party.  Conclude (syllogistically) whatever suits your heart's desire.

To wit, IF pigs could fly, THEN pork would surely be a low fat food.

The mind is a poor thing to waste, @Cookie.  Just breathtaking how yours works. Freshman Logic 101, plus pinheaded chess player.  A match made in heaven. 

Avatar of Dutchday

It's not about the prizes, but about the tournament. You all pay up a little for the costs, prizes are just a part of the costs.

I did win prizes a couple of times, though I don't play a lot of tournaments.