Why do we have woman categories?

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waffllemaster
Elubas wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
Elubas wrote:
chessguitar wrote:

If chess is a battle of the mind--why have separate titles for woman?  I understand why we have men's basketball and woman's basketball because they simply can't compete with each other on a physical level.  In chess, all those physical differences wouldn't seem to matter.

I appologize in advance if this has been posted before.


Exactly; they shouldn't be there. It's sexist because FIDE doesn't mind rewarding women for lesser accomplishments solely because they're women. Instead they should reward every woman who achieves what, currently the man must achieve, you know, so that it's actually equal, like I thought all humans were supposed to be. Yeah if we exclusively gave all 2600s and above all the attention, then a lot of women wouldn't get that attention, but if they didn't make it to such a high level, then why should they deserve it?

And what's so special about Judit Polgar? The truly neutral way to think of her is that, though she is great, she is just another strong, human, grandmaster, no? But obviously the fact that she is a woman makes it so much better? Isn't that a judgment based on sex?


Well sure, you could rationalize any human accomplishment into something not so grand.  Climbing mount Everest is just another mountain.

No, that's actually pretty nice; I feel no need to discriminate against mountains here

But the fact is before Judit no woman had made it that far before... ever.  The reasons can be underrepresentation, social, psychological, physical, or something else.  The reason doesn't matter, but she was clearly overcoming something.  Notice no women since has made it as far as her despite growing participation.  You could even say she was before her time, so it is worth remembering.

The problem with this whole paragraph is you assume that what you list are indeed obstacles, and you assume they are very severe. There is absolutely no way you can be so sure. Is it too much to think that someone's willpower to do what they love can overcome such shallow things like this supposed discrimination? Everyone has to overcome something anyway, man or woman!

 

I'm not at all in favor of discrimination or unequal rights for any group of people, but there are differences between groups of people that make certain accomplishments more difficult. 

Ok, but again, how do you know what she had to go through was any worse than what certain men specifically had to go through? How do you know you're not overestimating what she had to go through to the point of being nearly sure? Is it really that bad? Well, maybe, but we don't know, and we also don't know if it's any worse than what a man had to go through. For example, what if we take this prejudice the other way and say that a lot of pressure was put on some GM because he was a male prodigy. Couldn't he complain that he had to deal with the pressure that if he didn't make GM his parents would be mad at him or something? Would that make him exceptionally more worth-remembering?

My point is, the amount of obstacles one can list is endless, and the significance of them can be difficult to confidently, and, most certainly, incontrovertibly, determine, like in this case.



These are good arguments, and I don't disagree.  In a perfect world we wouldn't remember Judit.  You're correct I do assume that Judit overcame certain obstacles that made her performance worthy of mentioning.  As Susan Polgar's quote jokes "I've never beaten a healthy man!"  I think the environment these women had to fight against is noteworthy.

I don't think it's fair to say we don't remember the young male prodigy who overcame pressures.  We remember and lament how Rubenstien was too poor to make a challenge for the WC.  If he had overcome this somehow it would be a great story.  Fischer is much more memorable because he overcame the environment he was born into to go on and become world champion.

waffllemaster
Fezzik wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:

...

...  In a competition that is measured in hundredths of a second or centimeters I completely understand having separate medals for men and women.  But chess is not so finely judged.  If it were then it would make sense to have entirely separate competitions such as we see in the Olympics.


Chess is extremely finely judged! The difference between a master and a grandmaster cannot be discerned by an average player (without a strong engine). There is almost no way to tell the relative strength of players just by glancing at the games. One would have to study the games carefully before coming to any conclusions about the relative strength of anyone +2400. 

So this argument that chess is not a contest of extremely small distinctions is just prima facie wrong. 


That is one thing I considered while typing my argument.  You could add that to excel at the professional level in today's world means making as few as 1 mistake.  We're even beginning to see top games (or so I'm told) that hardly even have 1 mistake, and the super GM loses simply due to a passive position!

So I admit I was streching it there.  I try to make up for it a bit by going on to say that if the differences in biology do in fact account for such slight differences, then it makes more sense to separate the competition completely and thus actually recognize the fact that chess is so finely judged.  To keep men's titles open to women while at the same time given them special titles seems to be a velvet glove form of sexism.

Elubas

It is just incredibly disrespectful in my book, to feel that it's ok to (now of course, I especially mean FIDE), sometimes, overshadow certain male accomplishments, but to bring to light female ones that are objectively equal, in desperation for more females to play. Why can't they just be encouraged? But instead they have to put them at an advantage, to reward them for struggling? Seriously? lol, I wish someone rewarded me for struggling! Too bad I'm a boy! If I was a girl, I wouldn't need to improve that much to be recognized as some official WFM or something, which is like 2000 right?

Elubas
 

I don't think it's fair to say we don't remember the young male prodigy who overcame pressures.  We remember and lament how Rubenstien was too poor to make a challenge for the WC.  If he had overcome this somehow it would be a great story.  Fischer is much more memorable because he overcame the environment he was born into to go on and become world champion.


Well, it's not that I don't think it's awesome, it's just that to me it's one of hundreds of possible specific obstacles, just like this supposed female discouragement and discrimination, that isn't necessarily special. Because of course, it's basically impossible for any 27-2800 player not to have a great story on how they got there and what they had to struggle through. They may not have had to deal with either of these, but they certainly had to deal with something, and that something need not be any less significant than the two examples mentioned.

waffllemaster
Elubas wrote:

It is just incredibly disrespectful in my book, to feel that it's ok to (now of course, I especially mean FIDE), sometimes, overshadow certain male accomplishments, but to bring to light female ones that are objectively equal, in desperation for more females to play. Why can't they just be encouraged? But instead they have to put them at an advantage, to reward them for struggling? Seriously? lol, I wish someone rewarded me for struggling! Too bad I'm a boy! If I was a girl, I wouldn't need to improve that much to be recognized as some official WFM or something, which is like 2000 right?


And it's a bit hard to reconcile my views.  I'm saying it's worth remembering their performance for what they overcame but it's not worth rewarding them?

But I agree with you.  To try and adjust for these hardships by offering lesser titles is a step in the wrong direction because it aligns with the type of thinking that created the problem in the first place.  Like you're saying I would never be offered lesser titles even if I could prove I overcame certain difficulties.

However if we're to assume that women are at a distinct disadvantage, then it is only prudent to completely separate the competition.  Otherwise it does have negative effects socially despite it's positive effects for chess.

waffllemaster
Elubas wrote:
 

I don't think it's fair to say we don't remember the young male prodigy who overcame pressures.  We remember and lament how Rubenstien was too poor to make a challenge for the WC.  If he had overcome this somehow it would be a great story.  Fischer is much more memorable because he overcame the environment he was born into to go on and become world champion.


Well, it's not that I don't think it's awesome, it's just that to me it's one of hundreds of possible specific obstacles, just like this supposed female discouragement and discrimination, that isn't necessarily special. Because of course, it's basically impossible for any 27-2800 player not to have a great story on how they got there and what they had to struggle through. They may not have had to deal with either of these, but they certainly had to deal with something, and that something need not be any less significant than the two examples mentioned.


Kosteniuk argues that there are other problems.  She claims that professional chess is different from amateur chess in that it depends good physical health due to it's long stretches of play and intense nature.  She points to the fact that she lost 5 kilos of weight over 3 weeks during a championship competition and relates that her physical training increased her performance.

Not that I don't agree with you, (see my previous post), just FYI.

Elubas

"However if we're to assume that women are at a distinct disadvantage, then it is only prudent to completely separate the competition.  Otherwise it does have negative effects socially despite it's positive effects for chess."

I'd agree only if there was a disadvantage that was proven to be inherently biological, like how the physical limitations of women led to their segregation in sports. There are clearly some differences between the male and female brains, but certainly you can't come to a conclusion as incontrovertible as "females are inherently weaker on the physical level" when it comes to chess; in fact it's quite unclear.

If it's just social, then I can argue nearly everyone has to face social obstacles sometimes, who doesn't? If it was social then I would aim to try to convince people there is no reason to judge in some fair, reasonable way; NOT give them easier titles!! To do that you'd have to support sexism.

Elubas
waffllemaster wrote:
Elubas wrote:
 

I don't think it's fair to say we don't remember the young male prodigy who overcame pressures.  We remember and lament how Rubenstien was too poor to make a challenge for the WC.  If he had overcome this somehow it would be a great story.  Fischer is much more memorable because he overcame the environment he was born into to go on and become world champion.


Well, it's not that I don't think it's awesome, it's just that to me it's one of hundreds of possible specific obstacles, just like this supposed female discouragement and discrimination, that isn't necessarily special. Because of course, it's basically impossible for any 27-2800 player not to have a great story on how they got there and what they had to struggle through. They may not have had to deal with either of these, but they certainly had to deal with something, and that something need not be any less significant than the two examples mentioned.


Kosteniuk argues that there are other problems.  She claims that professional chess is different from amateur chess in that it depends good physical health due to it's long stretches of play and intense nature.  She points to the fact that she lost 5 kilos of weight over 3 weeks during a championship competition and relates that her physical training increased her performance.

Not that I don't agree with you, (see my previous post), just FYI.


I don't get how this contradicts my post: you're just listing more obstacles, which goes right along with my point about how plentiful they are.

waffllemaster

One problem I face with trying to support the female titles is I can't think of any other "underrepresented" or "weak" group of players within FIDE for which it would be acceptable to have the same type of titles.  In the United States I think a good parallel would be separate titles for African Americans.  While it certainly may promote chess within that population, due to the struggle for equal rights historically it simply wouldn't be acceptable (and for good reason).

It leaves me a bit curious why separate woman's titles are met with open arms... and so I keep searching for a parallel (maybe easier titles for people born into bad neighborhoods?) but as you can see I keep coming up short.

waffllemaster
Elubas wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
Elubas wrote:
 

I don't think it's fair to say we don't remember the young male prodigy who overcame pressures.  We remember and lament how Rubenstien was too poor to make a challenge for the WC.  If he had overcome this somehow it would be a great story.  Fischer is much more memorable because he overcame the environment he was born into to go on and become world champion.


Well, it's not that I don't think it's awesome, it's just that to me it's one of hundreds of possible specific obstacles, just like this supposed female discouragement and discrimination, that isn't necessarily special. Because of course, it's basically impossible for any 27-2800 player not to have a great story on how they got there and what they had to struggle through. They may not have had to deal with either of these, but they certainly had to deal with something, and that something need not be any less significant than the two examples mentioned.


Kosteniuk argues that there are other problems.  She claims that professional chess is different from amateur chess in that it depends good physical health due to it's long stretches of play and intense nature.  She points to the fact that she lost 5 kilos of weight over 3 weeks during a championship competition and relates that her physical training increased her performance.

Not that I don't agree with you, (see my previous post), just FYI.


I don't get how this contradicts my post: you're just listing more obstacles, which goes right along with my point about how plentiful they are.


Like I said I do agree with you.  I'm just giving you another side of the argument in case you hadn't seen it.  I don't think it changes anything either :)

Elubas

[@post 137 ]Well, I think the appeal comes from it's liberal, idealistic nature: "Women are struggling? Ok let's make it easier for them so they must succeed! That makes everyone happy!" I mean, that's what it has been starting to turn into.

It's, absolutely obnoxiously, an idea based on a totally one-way perspective. They don't realize that this undermines the value of the accomplishments, diligence, and persistence carried out by many male GMs who may get higher than a given female player but get less attention than them. For example, Anna Zatonskih is married to a pretty strong GM, actually stronger than her, but by the current logic, she deserves the attention, because she's a woman! In a chess life magazine I was reading, they just referred to him as: "ok here is a game from her husband," not even by his name! This is how they divide their respect?

Elubas
Fezzik wrote:

Let's dream for a moment....

Let's say a spectacular female tennis player came along. She was so good that she could compete on the men's side of the draw and challenge for a few grand slam trophies. 

There's more money to be had on the men's side. There's more prestige. Should she not be allowed to compete for the men's trophy? I think she should be allowed to compete. 

She'd be at an unfair advantage though, because she would always be able to lean on women's titles for collecting money, whether in the present or perhaps in her earlier years. Any man can only get that prestige one way: winning the male championship; the given woman has two ways.

 If my rating had been 500 points higher, I would have qualified for the US championship. Just as meaningless.

I completely disagree. In the case of higher rating points, that equals more skill; in the case of being female, that means being lucky enough to be born female; which deserves more reward?


simpledimple

tra dish shunnnn  tradition la la la la la la la la la tradition

waffllemaster
Fezzik wrote:

Let's dream for a moment....

Let's say a spectacular female tennis player came along. She was so good that she could compete on the men's side of the draw and challenge for a few grand slam trophies. 

There's more money to be had on the men's side. There's more prestige. Should she not be allowed to compete for the men's trophy? I think she should be allowed to compete. 

Chess at least makes it clear that anyone can compete for the overall trophy. It acknowledges that there are sexual differences in chess performance. If simply acknowledging that there are sexual differences is sexist, then yes, it is sexist.

But FIDE at least has tried to do something to minimize those differences and to reward the best female players. 

For those trying to make an analogy between gender differences and racial differences, are you really suggesting that there are significant physical differences between the races, as there are between genders?

Oh, and when I was good at chess, my rating would have qualified me to play in several Women's US championships, if I had been female. But that is such a huge caveat as to make the statement meaningless. If my rating had been 500 points higher, I would have qualified for the US championship. Just as meaningless.


It's an interesting explanation... hmm.

My idea is though that it's harmful to ride the fence in this way.  Either women are definitely at a distinct disadvantage in chess competition at the professional level or they aren't.  Giving them a shot at the WC title and having women's only titles only muddy the intentions as interpreted by society which I believe will find too many similarities between this treatment and past discrimination.  Notice that there will never be a woman that will compete with a man at the top levels of Athletic competition that requires strength such as tennis.

It's hard to defend the grounds for special treatment when at the same time these people are allowed to opt for no special treatment and are able to succeed at the top.

As for comparing it to racial differences, as I went on to say, the analogy falls short.  I end my thought by saying I'm unable to find a similar group.  I suppose you might argue that women are the only group disadvantaged in terms of chess ability due to their bodies and so I won't be able to find another group.

Natalia_Pogonina
couriermike wrote:

lol, godwin's law has been achieved!

I suspect the point of Pogonina's poll is that we're in a transition period between no women in chess and full participation, but I'm definitely interested in hearing her opinion.


You got the idea right. The answers are a) 37 b) 24

TheOldReb
Fezzik wrote:

Let's dream for a moment....

Let's say a spectacular female tennis player came along. She was so good that she could compete on the men's side of the draw and challenge for a few grand slam trophies. 

There's more money to be had on the men's side. There's more prestige. Should she not be allowed to compete for the men's trophy? I think she should be allowed to compete. 

Chess at least makes it clear that anyone can compete for the overall trophy. It acknowledges that there are sexual differences in chess performance. If simply acknowledging that there are sexual differences is sexist, then yes, it is sexist.

But FIDE at least has tried to do something to minimize those differences and to reward the best female players. 

For those trying to make an analogy between gender differences and racial differences, are you really suggesting that there are significant physical differences between the races, as there are between genders?

Oh, and when I was good at chess, my rating would have qualified me to play in several Women's US championships, if I had been female. But that is such a huge caveat as to make the statement meaningless. If my rating had been 500 points higher, I would have qualified for the US championship. Just as meaningless.


If you did this then to be fair, and not discriminate against men, you would have to allow strong male players that could compete well for the top female prizes to play for them as well.  Why not ?  I am talking about top male players that are say under 2700 but over 2600...... they dont do well at all against the elite male players but would give elite female players fits, perhaps more than they could handle. If chess were truly fair to all it would be like this : you have ten cash prizes for the first ten finishers and all play in one big section. If you aint good enough to finish among the first ten then tough !  You get nothing. No prizes for best under 2000 , under 1800 etc and no prizes for best under a certain age, no prizes for females only and none for seniors either. Lets take many of the current US swiss tourney formats. I am over 2200 so am forced to play in the Open section where I may face players from 2000 to 2600 and even higher ( USCF ratings ) . So, I am in a group with perhaps 600 points between the top and last player in the section. I will probably be competing for first , second or third overall and not have a shot at any but one of those 3 prizes. Only the very big tournies have prizes for under 2400 and under 2300 etc.  However, a 2000 player has a shot at the same 3 prizes I do PLUS a shot at probably 3 prizes for under 2200 . So, often the 2000-2199 player will have a shot at 6 prizes where I only have a shot at 3..... please explain to me how the hell this is fair ?!  Its not, plain and simple. Now, to compound the problem many US tournies will have the lower sections with much less than 600 points difference between the lowest and highest in the section....... again... not fair. I can understand the reasoning behind sandbaggers as I am sure they realize this and feel that they are being punished as they go up in rating.... and how can anyone say honestly they are not ? 

TheOldReb
Fezzik wrote:

Reb, do you have an easily identifiable physical distinction from the top male players? 


Not as far as I know, no.  People seem concerned with discrimination to such an extent that they use discrimination in an effort to fight against it.... which is idiotic imo and certainly not fair to those discriminated against. There are female only events, and as far as I know there are no male only events.... explain to me how this is fair again ? I havent seen a satisfactory explanation yet. Do other games do this ?  Backgammon ?  Checkers/draughts ?  Bridge ?  

Ziryab
waffllemaster wrote:



Addendum

The idea that women do poorly because their bodies are physically weaker (a la Kosteniuk's argument) or because they have to make a "dangerous" choice between a professional career and a family (again Kosteniuk) is incorrect.  Female professional athletes overcome the same types of decisions and preform nearly as well as men.  In a competition that is measured in hundredths of a second or centimeters I completely understand having separate medals for men and women.  But chess is not so finely judged.  If it were then it would make sense to have entirely separate competitions such as we see in the Olympics.


I think that you have some good points here. Indeed, that's why I prefer Natalia Pogonina's argument.

waffllemaster
LordNazgul wrote:

I really don't the see the physical difference as being a crucial factor here. Should we divide chess players by weight like boxers ?


Haha, good point.  Maybe the halting of the Karpov-Kasparov match under the guise of health and noting Karpov's weight loss has set a precedent with unexpected consequences.  Smile

waffllemaster
Ziryab wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:



Addendum

The idea that women do poorly because their bodies are physically weaker (a la Kosteniuk's argument) or because they have to make a "dangerous" choice between a professional career and a family (again Kosteniuk) is incorrect.  Female professional athletes overcome the same types of decisions and preform nearly as well as men.  In a competition that is measured in hundredths of a second or centimeters I completely understand having separate medals for men and women.  But chess is not so finely judged.  If it were then it would make sense to have entirely separate competitions such as we see in the Olympics.


I think that you have some good points here. Indeed, that's why I prefer Natalia Pogonina's argument.


Ack, I'll have to go back and re-read it then.  I didn't notice any real difference in argument on the first read through... maybe later though.  I'm still a youngster having to look forward to some end of the year testing and I've already spent more time on chess.com than I planned.