Will computers ever solve chess?

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A baseball cap with two electrodes attached. Powered by 2 AA batteries. A very small chip that stimulates the brain, custom settings.

No more drugs, alchohol, tobacco. The next big leap in computing technology.

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vickalan wrote:

FLOPS is a way to see how computers have improved, but it's not used to measure chess positions. Checkers and chess are analyzed with integer-like operations (floating point numbers with exponents not needed).

Checkers was solved using about 2000 GFLOPS (2 TFLOPS).  Today some supercomputers operate at 50,000 TFLOPS (50 PetaFLOPS). So we  have about 25,000 times the processing power that was used for checkers. You can "take-away" a few orders of magnitude of calculations I showed previously, and it's still easy to see a path to chess being solved. The answer to this thread's question is probably Yes.

No, FLOPS is a measurement, floating point operations per second...no more, no less.   I am aware of "integer-like operations".  You might want to spout your vague "Google is my co-pilot" BS at somebody who didn't work in Silicon Valley managing development teams and departments for 15+ years.  Every time I post real numbers arrived at step by step, you post vague estimates and feelings wink.png...

Avatar of vickalan
s23bog wrote:

Of course, since we are using computers, it may be easier to define it in a language more suited to computer (programming, at its heart is mathematics).  In pseudo code, what does it mean to be solved, exactly?

 

I don't have pseudo code to define a solved game, but a solved game can best be described by just saying you know the outcome if both players played perfectly. For example, Tic-tac-toe is solved, because we know that with perfect play, neither side can win.

This is a good video: (Infinite chess - YouTube) that talks about solving chess. At about 1:30 a game tree is created for the game of Nim. In this example one player can force a win (but there are other versions).

The video later talks about "infinite chess". Evidently some people think chess is not complicated enough, so they are now studying games on an infinite board.happy.png

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s23bog wrote:

Is there any significant progress that can be made toward "solving chess" by computer in this particular forum?

No.

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Vickalan wrote:

The video later talks about "infinite chess". Evidently some people think chess is not complicated enough, so they are now studying games on an infinite board.happy.png

An "infinite board" ???

Infinity does not exixt except as a mathamatical concept. There are no infinite anythings.

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even scientists banned time from being infinite by inventing the big bang and the big squelch.

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E=mc^2 and Bob's your Uncle! Keep your hair on Chexbomb.

Avatar of imitheleisanghaoth

wha ? the correct quote is "bobs yer teapot".

Avatar of ProfessorPownall

Limits exist for everything in nature.

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"Infinite" Time, space, matter, big or small, does not exist.

Avatar of Elroch

Infinite means not finite. To deny the existence of the infinite is a statement that everything is finite, which cannot be justified.

Even in the physical world we have no evidence of finiteness, directly contrary to the rash claim above. Indeed the evidence from astronomy and cosmology is consistent with the opposite. This is the simpler explanation, while finiteness would require a more messy explanation of the spatially heterogenous Universe we observe. Cosmologists generally now agree the Universe has an infinite future: evidence has clarified this.

In the world of abstract objects which we use to represent our world, infinity is the norm. It is a very unusual person who would say there is a maximum integer but the only alternative is that the integers are infinite (i.e. not finite).

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If the term "infinite" is hard to define, then think about chess pieces trying to move there. In the YouTube video (above), the authors talk about captures that take place in squares "bigger than any finite number." A king tries to move there one step at a time to avoid being captured. I'm sure that the 50-move rule is being ignored.happy.png

Avatar of ProfessorPownall

Cite anything that is infinite. It is easily refuted.  It is simply a term used to describe what the mind can not rationally comprehend. To say the future is infinite is simply incorrect. How can it be infinite today when there is a tomorrow ? Meaning it is not at any given point in time "infinite". An assumption must be made that time will go on forever. This is not known nor can be proven. Time as it exists at this moment is finite, like everything else. There is no infinitely big, infinitely small, infinite space. Space is either expanding or it is not. In either case it is not of infinite size at this point in time. Infinite is simply a term to explain what seems a paradox, aterm that only has meaning in mathamatics.

Avatar of DiogenesDue

Yes, and 0.999... repeating decimal = 1

Avatar of ProfessorPownall

 infinity exists only as a means of description, such as found in mathematics for example, or any other thing that exists only in the abstract. I do not believe that it has any real existence in the universe such as infinite mass or infinite size. The word 'infinity' is a descriptive term and not a measure of size, and I therefore do not see how it can be applied to anything 'real', as real things can be measured.

Quote

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http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/What%20is%20infinity.htm

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Naturally in mathematics we can have infinity, numbers go on for ever, but numbers are not real, they are abstract. I cannot imagine anything 'real' that we could apply an infinite number to. The only thing I can imagine that could be really infinite is nothing, the 'nothing' I described earlier in Where did the universe come from? and we have no idea if that exists.

The concept of infinity is a puzzling one. For example: imagine a standard pack of playing cards that consists of just one of each card but two jokers. Imagine that the packs of playing cards are infinite in number (A thought exercise only of course). We therefore have more jokers than any other card in each pack, so do we have more jokers in total? You could reply that as the packs are infinite in number they can't be counted so it would be impossible to know. However, as the ratio of jokers to other cards in each pack is fixed, then at any number of packs there will always be more jokers. This would appear to indicate, that mathematically, we can have degrees of infinity. Sounds odd doesn't it? It is a valid mathematical argument though.

From above link
Avatar of skullyvick

As far as I'm concerned they already have. Without cheating chess programs bet me every time. The slightest mistake and they get to the end game with extra pawns that I can't stop. I've replayed great games of Grand Masters where the computer shows them as not ready for prime time players. Computers will still get better though but the gains will diminish to INFINITY. Funny thing... my car is an Infiniti... I'm already there! Computers should play computers and humans should play humans. If you want to train on a computer good but if you want to compete with a computer you will be infinitely disappointed. 

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s23bog wrote:

Truth is either an abstract concept pertaining to things that have not been proven to be false, or it might actually be something real.

 

Truth is nothing can be infinitely big or small. Neither time nor space. Things that are "real" can not be infinite. Everything in the observable universe is finite. Only in the world of numbers (which are not "real things" but an abstraction) is the concept of infinity used to describe what comes next. If you take to the theory "time" lasts forever, you can not say at this given moment, time is "infinite". It is not. 

Avatar of ProfessorPownall

Either something has a limit or it does'nt. It can't be "may, or may not have".

Limit may be just another word for finite per this discussion. Can something be infinitely small, the opposite of infinitely big? A harder concept to grasp. Infinitely small suggests an ultimate "nothingness". Does something continue to decrease in size until there is nothing ?

No. There exists a limit, a finite size. Dividing in half continuesly is an abstraction, it only exists in the realm of numbers and mathamatics. A very difficult concept for the mind to grasp, real things have limits and are finite.

The size of the universe tomorrow might be bigger, might be smaller, might remain the same, but the size today is finite.