Will computers ever solve chess?

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Avatar of ponz111

Some humans have a quality of thinking the best chess engines do not have.

 However this human quality will only help in very rare circumstances.

Avatar of ProfessorPownall

Engines analize all positions from a single perspective, that of material advantage, Of course, a pawn will be assigned a value of a Queen if the potential exists. The fact remains, all engine analysis is given as a material Plus or Minus. A perfect example was seen in a recent analysis of a GM game giving one side a +9.00 advantage. Winning. The move suggested as best was played and it dropped to +4.00. Again, the suggested response was played and it dropped to +1.50 but still much better. A few moves later a draw was agreed. Humans knew this result all along, but Stockfish was "ignorant" of the position, having based it's evaluation on material +.

Avatar of ponz111
ProfessorPownall wrote:

Engines analize all positions from a single perspective, that of material advantage, Of course, a pawn will be assigned a value of a Queen if the potential exists. The fact remains, all engine analysis is given as a material Plus or Minus. A perfect example was seen in a recent analysis of a GM game giving one side a +9.00 advantage. Winning. The move suggested as best was played and it dropped to +4.00. Again, the suggested response was played and it dropped to +1.50 but still much better. A few moves later a draw was agreed. Humans knew this result all along, but Stockfish was "ignorant" of the position, having based it's evaluation on material +.

and what was the position? Maybe a blocked one? 

Do you have any results where stockfish missed a win which a human found?

Avatar of JeffGreen333
ponz111 wrote:

Sometimes a human player can look at a position that the very top chess engines cannot solve--and that human can solve the position in just a few minutes.

Good point.  Computers are great at calculating, but they are lacking in some other areas of the game.  Therefore, a computer can't solve chess.  Maybe some kind of cyborg (human-computer hybrid) could though.  lol   Let's put a computer chip in Carlsen's brain and test that theory.  grin.png  

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
JeffGreen333 wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

Sometimes a human player can look at a position that the very top chess engines cannot solve--and that human can solve the position in just a few minutes.

Good point.  Computers are great at calculating, but they are lacking in some other areas of the game.  Therefore, a computer can't solve chess.  Maybe some kind of cyborg (human-computer hybrid) could though.  lol   Let's put a computer chip in Carlsen's brain and test that theory.    

And that is exactly what a lot of people who believe chess is solvable say. The term "computer" is probably also loosely meant to refer to what will replace computers. Just as the analogy of going to the moon. In 1783 no horse could gallop to the moon. So it was assumed no "vehicle" could ever do it. And of course, even someone straining their imagination could not conceive of how it could ever be done. But eventually a vehicle did do it, it was just a vehicle that replaced the horse. Given the similarities to tic tac toe and checkers, it's likely perfect chess is a tie. We just haven't yet imagined the machine or thing that will prove it.

Avatar of Nathanhof
ProfessorPownall wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:
Nathanhof wrote:


Checkers was solved in 2009, or 8 years ago. In total there were about 500 billion billion (500*10**18) games to be checked.

 

I even find this hard to believe.   So, there is an actual perfect move order that guarantees a win for the first player that moves?  

Yes. Checkers has been "solved". The 1st side to move is able to force a win in all variations.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/computers-solve-checkers-its-a-draw/

Avatar of Nathanhof
ProfessorPownall wrote:

Engines analize all positions from a single perspective, that of material advantage, Of course, a pawn will be assigned a value of a Queen if the potential exists. The fact remains, all engine analysis is given as a material Plus or Minus. A perfect example was seen in a recent analysis of a GM game giving one side a +9.00 advantage. Winning. The move suggested as best was played and it dropped to +4.00. Again, the suggested response was played and it dropped to +1.50 but still much better. A few moves later a draw was agreed. Humans knew this result all along, but Stockfish was "ignorant" of the position, having based it's evaluation on material +.

No they don't....

Avatar of Nathanhof
JeffGreen333 wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

Sometimes a human player can look at a position that the very top chess engines cannot solve--and that human can solve the position in just a few minutes.

Good point.  Computers are great at calculating, but they are lacking in some other areas of the game.  Therefore, a computer can't solve chess.  Maybe some kind of cyborg (human-computer hybrid) could though.  lol   Let's put a computer chip in Carlsen's brain and test that theory.    

Some assumptions you made:

- computers need to be able to take care of these aspects

- computers cannot make up for the aspects they lack using it's raw computational power
- computers cannot be improved upon

Chess will never be solved, but your reasoning is so flawed it hurts...

Avatar of ponz111

of course  computers can and do improve.

it is fairly obvious computers will never solve chess.

it is quite obvious chess is a draw.

Avatar of DerekDHarvey

Inevitably.

 

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
bb_gum234 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

Just as the analogy of going to the moon. In 1783 no horse could gallop to the moon. So it was assumed no "vehicle" could ever do it. And of course, even someone straining their imagination could not conceive of how it could ever be done.

That's ridiculous.

Humans were dreaming up flying vehicles since the time they first encountered birds. It likely predates language. You say it was inconceivable in 1783? Ugh.

And your basic argument is because people in the past were ignorant, it means everything is possible in the future. It's not even remotely logical.

People use the same format to argue knowledge doesn't exist.

"They used to think the earth was flat, therefore no matter what we think we know, or what we discover in the future, we probably don't know anything."

Just stop.

i didn't say it was inconceivable in 1783, I said it was inconceivable of HOW to do it. Of course we can imagine solving chess, but we have not yet conceived of HOW to do it. That doesn't mean the how is impossible for a future brilliant thinker. Just as the how of getting to the moon was impossible in 1783, imaginable in 1883, and already done by 1983.And not everyone thought the earth was flat, some knew it was not because it was logically not, and it was written that it was not. As for your suggestion to just "stop" wanting progress and seeking out new information and inventions, that's likely to not happen. We people seem to really like doing and discovering new things.

Avatar of DerekDHarvey

Eventually.

Avatar of Nathanhof
s23bog wrote:

Perhaps it is worth looking at the amount of electricity used per operation, and how that has progressed over the years.  What are the obstacles to improving that ratio?  What is the best architecture for yielding the best results?

 

I have mentioned before that I feel spherical architecture offers promise.  But what might the circuitry look like?

 

You are aware there is a theoretical limit (which means god herself couldn't brake it) to how much energy is required for the signal. This has been explained to you before and you should know this by know.

Also saying stuff like "I have mentioned before that I feel spherical architecture offers promise. But what might the circuitry look like?" Really doesn't do much unless you explain why you feel it offers promise (and not "wikipedia said so" otherwise we could just copy paste the whole discussion from there.

Avatar of JuergenWerner
JeffGreen333 wrote:
JuergenWerner wrote:
Who is The Prodigy

Some moron that posted a disgusting animated .gif file on here and then deleted his account.  

?

Avatar of JeffGreen333

I prefer not to describe it.   It was just that disgusting.  I'm still having nightmares.   lol

Avatar of Nathanhof
s23bog wrote:

With regards to programming to play chess, versus programming to "solve" chess:

 

The logic of solving chess is to search for a win for white and a draw for black.  While, programming to play chess, you search for a win for the player to move, then, barring that ... search for a draw, then search to make the agony go on for as long as possible while enduring the inevitable.

 

How many distinctly different ways are there for black to lose in the first 4 moves?

But that's not what "solving chess" means...

Avatar of Nathanhof
s23bog wrote:

:A simple binary expression of the solution is 

 

White can force a win? (true or false)

And even this statement is incorrect. The question is: if both players play perfectly, what is the result? Win for white, win for black or draw?

Avatar of Elroch

There can be no position where EVERY move by a side worsens its true value. This value is defined as the value achieved by the BEST possible move, which is the value the opponent can reach by their BEST possible reply (recursively).

Avatar of Elroch
s23bog wrote:

Perhaps it is worth looking at the amount of electricity used per operation, and how that has progressed over the years.  What are the obstacles to improving that ratio?  What is the best architecture for yielding the best results?

 

I have mentioned before that I feel spherical architecture offers promise.  But what might the circuitry look like?

3D circuitry is a reality. But spherical circuitry combines the best possible distance metric with the worst possible design for getting rid of heat. And the latter is a problem even with flat CPUs (which have much larger surface area). Eg if a transistor has a scale of 1, a trillion transistors in a 2D array has an area of 2 trillion. The same number of transistors in a sphere has an area about 4000 times less, if my mental calculation is correct (certainly of that order). This would make it run way too hot without compensating enormously, or using an entirely different technology.

Avatar of JeffGreen333
Nathanhof wrote:
s23bog wrote:

:A simple binary expression of the solution is 

 

White can force a win? (true or false)

And even this statement is incorrect. The question is: if both players play perfectly, what is the result? Win for white, win for black or draw?

Well, it can't possibly be a win for black, if both sides play perfectly.  Based on the average of all GM games, I'm leaning heavily towards draw.