Is there any starting position in FR where both bishops are the same color?
Will Fischer Random chess now also become more popular and accepted on all levels?
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Nov 3, 2019
0
#43
congrandolor wrote:
Is there any starting position in FR where both bishops are the same color?
No there are basically 2 rules that restrict complete randomisation:
Bishops must be in opposite colors
The king must start somewhere between the two rooks.
Without those rules there would be a few thousand positions instead of 960
Nov 3, 2019
0
#44
Ziryab wrote:
tompressing wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
gambitattax wrote:
I actually want Chess 960 to become more popular.
It is vastly superior to Fischer Random.
I thought it was the same. Is there a difference?
Huge difference. One name acknowledges the math. The other celebrates a former World Champion when he wasn't thinking clearly, perpetuating his mistake.
Bobby Fischer said nothing wrong.
Nov 3, 2019
0
#45
Given that Bobby Fischer was a raging antisemite and conspiracy theorist, it is better marketing to call it Chess960 over Fischerrandom.
Nov 3, 2019
0
#46
One of the alleged problems with this chess variant is that supposedly some positions give too much advantage to the white pieces- https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-problem-with-chess960. They try to solve this problem by forcing players to play the same position twice, with colors reversed. But this solution seems somewhat tedious and gives the player who plays black second a comparative advantage over the other player- since both players have more knowledge about the position. I would think that a better solution would be to remove positions that are considered too advantageous for white from the legal positions allowed in the game. Perhaps all positions that give white more advantage than in standard chess should be banned?
Another problem is the issue of lack of piece coordination in the starting position. Although both players share this burden due to the symmetrical starting position, having considerable difficulty in piece development (while also taking king safety into account) can make for an unpleasant experience playing the game. Unfortunately, I do not know how to solve this problem; thanks to castling rules, the standard chess position seems to be possibly the best-coordinated starting position possible. The knights develop naturally towards the center, the bishops come out nicely to influence the center, the rooks get to good positions after castling, etc. I don't see standard chess ever being outright replaced by chess960; at the very least, it is a good position for beginners and class-players to play before "graduating" to chess960.
Nov 3, 2019
0
#47
worstplayer46 wrote:
One of the alleged problems with this chess variant is that supposedly some positions give too much advantage to the white pieces- https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-problem-with-chess960. They try to solve this problem by forcing players to play the same position twice, with colors reversed. But this solution seems somewhat tedious and gives the player who plays black second a comparative advantage over the other player- since both players have more knowledge about the position. I would think that a better solution would be to remove positions that are considered too advantageous for white from the legal positions allowed in the game. Perhaps all positions that give white more advantage than in standard chess should be banned?
Another problem is the issue of lack of piece coordination in the starting position. Although both players share this burden due to the symmetrical starting position, having considerable difficulty in piece development (while also taking king safety into account) can make for an unpleasant experience playing the game. Unfortunately, I do not know how to solve this problem; thanks to castling rules, the standard chess position seems to be possibly the best-coordinated starting position possible. The knights develop naturally towards the center, the bishops come out nicely to influence the center, the rooks get to good positions after castling, etc. I don't see standard chess ever being outright replaced by chess960; at the very least, it is a good position for beginners and class-players to play before "graduating" to chess960.
The problem about some positions being much more favorable to White well I'm not sure. Rather than using win loss statistics I would rather see computer evaluation of each position. In regular chess white has a half a pawn advantage (which is not a problem?). Is like to see the best and worst case evaluations for 960. I think the data is too limited right now to use w/l/d data.
And as they did in the recent match players switch black and white, which solves the problem despite the chess base articles negative bias.
The second problem of awkward positions isn't a problem at all. It is just part of the game.
@SpiritofrheVictory Well, when you start throwing some new theoretical pieces into the game, like the “knight rider” or what have you, well, that really is the “stuff that dreams are made of.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capablanca_Chess
Oh, but that quote is from Maltese Falcon. Not Casablanca.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capablanca_Chess
Oh, but that quote is from Maltese Falcon. Not Casablanca.
Nov 3, 2019
0
#50
worstplayer46 wrote:
Given that Bobby Fischer was a raging antisemite and conspiracy theorist, it is better marketing to call it Chess960 over Fischerrandom.
Yea he offended a lot of snowflakes. Boohoo.
MasterPatzer81 wrote:
worstplayer46 wrote:
Given that Bobby Fischer was a raging antisemite and conspiracy theorist, it is better marketing to call it Chess960 over Fischerrandom.
Yea he offended a lot of snowflakes. Boohoo.
I don't think we should look the other way when one of Chess' greatest geniuses and contributors also happened to be a madman. It's part of the game. Acknowledge it and make peace with it.
Kasparov is a huge campaigner for human rights and he as a lot to say about AI.
Nov 4, 2019
0
#52
forked_again wrote:
worstplayer46 wrote:
One of the alleged problems with this chess variant is that supposedly some positions give too much advantage to the white pieces- https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-problem-with-chess960. They try to solve this problem by forcing players to play the same position twice, with colors reversed. But this solution seems somewhat tedious and gives the player who plays black second a comparative advantage over the other player- since both players have more knowledge about the position. I would think that a better solution would be to remove positions that are considered too advantageous for white from the legal positions allowed in the game. Perhaps all positions that give white more advantage than in standard chess should be banned?
Another problem is the issue of lack of piece coordination in the starting position. Although both players share this burden due to the symmetrical starting position, having considerable difficulty in piece development (while also taking king safety into account) can make for an unpleasant experience playing the game. Unfortunately, I do not know how to solve this problem; thanks to castling rules, the standard chess position seems to be possibly the best-coordinated starting position possible. The knights develop naturally towards the center, the bishops come out nicely to influence the center, the rooks get to good positions after castling, etc. I don't see standard chess ever being outright replaced by chess960; at the very least, it is a good position for beginners and class-players to play before "graduating" to chess960.
The problem about some positions being much more favorable to White well I'm not sure. Rather than using win loss statistics I would rather see computer evaluation of each position. In regular chess white has a half a pawn advantage (which is not a problem?). Is like to see the best and worst case evaluations for 960. I think the data is too limited right now to use w/l/d data.
And as they did in the recent match players switch black and white, which solves the problem despite the chess base articles negative bias.
The second problem of awkward positions isn't a problem at all. It is just part of the game.
Well everyone says computer analysis is quite bad in the openings, particularly when deciding the first move. So that is not necessarily a good idea. W/L/D percentages should be fine if they are statistically significant, which should not take too many games. You can even generate those statistics by having computers play itself in those positions in blitz games.
I already explained why having to play 2 games as black and white is not that great of an idea, and I provided an alternative.
And if awkward positions from move 1 are "just a part of a game," that is definitely a problem. Tons of people do not play Chess960 for that exact reason. That's why it is hard to see Chess960 ever fully replacing standard chess, even if it becomes a more popular variant for advanced chess players.
Nov 4, 2019
0
#53
MasterPatzer81 wrote:
worstplayer46 wrote:
Given that Bobby Fischer was a raging antisemite and conspiracy theorist, it is better marketing to call it Chess960 over Fischerrandom.
Yea he offended a lot of snowflakes. Boohoo.
Why do you hate Jewish people, MasterPatzer81? Do you even believe that the Holocaust ever happened?
Nov 4, 2019
0
#54
LenKody wrote:
MasterPatzer81 wrote:
worstplayer46 wrote:
Given that Bobby Fischer was a raging antisemite and conspiracy theorist, it is better marketing to call it Chess960 over Fischerrandom.
Yea he offended a lot of snowflakes. Boohoo.
I don't think we should look the other way when one of Chess' greatest geniuses and contributors also happened to be a madman. It's part of the game. Acknowledge it and make peace with it.
Kasparov is a huge campaigner for human rights and he as a lot to say about AI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_management
If Osama bin Laden had invented Chess960, would you be happy with calling Chess960 "BinLadenRandom"?
worstplayer46 wrote:
LenKody wrote:
MasterPatzer81 wrote:
worstplayer46 wrote:
Given that Bobby Fischer was a raging antisemite and conspiracy theorist, it is better marketing to call it Chess960 over Fischerrandom.
Yea he offended a lot of snowflakes. Boohoo.
I don't think we should look the other way when one of Chess' greatest geniuses and contributors also happened to be a madman. It's part of the game. Acknowledge it and make peace with it.
Kasparov is a huge campaigner for human rights and he as a lot to say about AI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_management
If Osama bin Laden had invented Chess960, would you be happy with calling Chess960 "BinLadenRandom"?
Fischer was crazy. Maybe literally —https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer#Speculation_on_psychological_condition
Probably insensitive for me to say it that way. Which begs the question, do we vilify Fischer? Celebrate him? Pity him?
He was a complicated man, but his outrageous statements and twisted strategies never hurt anyone off the chessboard. Bin Laden killed people, though. Lots of them. So Bobby has that going for him, at least.
I guess so... This can be made more random by not insisting that both sides have the same pattern !
Raw Calculation power come to the fore !
worstplayer46 wrote:
One of the alleged problems with this chess variant is that supposedly some positions give too much advantage to the white pieces- https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-problem-with-chess960. They try to solve this problem by forcing players to play the same position twice, with colors reversed. But this solution seems somewhat tedious and gives the player who plays black second a comparative advantage over the other player- since both players have more knowledge about the position. I would think that a better solution would be to remove positions that are considered too advantageous for white from the legal positions allowed in the game. Perhaps all positions that give white more advantage than in standard chess should be banned?
Another problem is the issue of lack of piece coordination in the starting position. Although both players share this burden due to the symmetrical starting position, having considerable difficulty in piece development (while also taking king safety into account) can make for an unpleasant experience playing the game. Unfortunately, I do not know how to solve this problem; thanks to castling rules, the standard chess position seems to be possibly the best-coordinated starting position possible. The knights develop naturally towards the center, the bishops come out nicely to influence the center, the rooks get to good positions after castling, etc. I don't see standard chess ever being outright replaced by chess960; at the very least, it is a good position for beginners and class-players to play before "graduating" to chess960.
I don't fully agree. While it's true that queen, bishops and knights have maybe the best initial possible square in standard chess, it takes some moves to develop the rooks. In the Fisher Random wc we watched losts of games where the players developed rooks just by pushing a central pawn.
Nov 4, 2019
0
#58
worstplayer46 wrote:
Why do you hate Jewish people, [obvious troll]? Do you even believe that the Holocaust ever happened?
Don't feed 'em.
Nov 4, 2019
0
#59
LenKody wrote:
He was a complicated man, but his outrageous statements and twisted strategies never hurt anyone off the chessboard. Bin Laden killed people, though. Lots of them. So Bobby has that going for him, at least.
The sort of comparison we have going here is all the argument we need for favoring Chess960 as the better name.
I love Fischer's chess and some of his comments about how the game is played, but...
1.e4 "best by test" has been proven wrong
Then, the man with the most limited opening repertoire in history starts raging about opening study killing the game, and people listen ...
Then he starts expressing lunacies about the world outside chess, and people continue to listen.
Rational people don't need explanations. Go back to My 60 Memorable Games and the games he played 1970-1972. There is plenty worthwhile there. Don't celebrate his lunacy.
I've tried it and enjoyed it for the very reason it was developed. The start positions can be so different! I can see it becoming more popular; I only learned about it recently.