The FIDE rules are completely irrelevant in chess games outside of FIDE tournaments and it doesn't matter what rules FIDE considers 'basic' rules. What matters is what the chess players think or the chess club thinks. The basic rules of chess are not decided by FIDE. I am pretty sure that the large majority includes the 50 move rule in the basic rules unless they don't care to cover all cases within the rules. You need some rule in case no progress is made and the 50 move rule is the most used rule. In friendly games players may not bother to count the moves though, but most people aren't that stubborn when the position is clearly a draw. People either use rules to cover all cases or they decide what should happen when such a situation occurs on the board. The 50 move rule is rarely used anyway.

In principle FIDE does not decide the basic rules of chess. FIDE is just some organisation and one of their goals is to standardize rules for chess. That doesn't mean everyone necessarily has to agree with them. Whatever they write in their handbook, it just doesn't matter. People can decide for themselves if they use FIDE rules or not. FIDE rules only apply on FIDE tournaments etc. The fact that most people use FIDE rules, doesn't mean that FIDE decides the rules. Nobody would follow them if they would change the way pieces move. Using the rules which FIDE supplies is simply the easiest way for chess clubs. They usually say in their regulations that they follow the FIDE rules supplied by KNSB in dutch in the Netherlands unless otherwise specified. These rules of course include the 50 move rule. They use all rules, no set of rules which doesn't include 50 move rule.

@Numquam

Interesting. Are the FIDE rules supplied by KNSB different from the published FIDE rules? The published rules do include a 50 move rule but not for informal games.

People in Holland outside chess clubs would probably use the published rules. You can find opportunities for such games quite easily in Holland.

I think this thread should probably have a 50 move rule

I think it would be better terminated under my "no progress" rule.

👍

In fact, the 50 move rule could actually deter quicker mates. Take this example:

Let's say that in this position, 49 moves have been played without a capture or pawn move. White achieved this position, and has a mate in 2 (Ra8+..etc) but after Nb8, it would be move 50 = Draw. White wold have to go for the capture on d7, despite it being a mate in 2, just to "get a capture in" and re-set the move count. The game will actually take longer if white wants to avoid a 50 move claim, when he could have just mated in 2. So...White would be given the win for a weaker move and a draw for the stronger move.

For a more extreme example, if the following position were arrived at with two moves of the 50 move rule already gone, then if both players played perfectly the 50 move rule would add 43 moves to the game.

Of course the chances of getting two human opponents who could play it accurately with the 50 move rule in effect is nil, but that's just a reason to reserve the rule for computer v computer.

The 50 move rule also fails to take into account other means of "progress", such as castling, double checks, and triangulation. The same way 3 fold repetition doesn't count triangulation as a repeated position, why should the 50 move rule count it? Also, a pawn move and capture at the same time, should allow 100 more moves because that is DOUBLE progress! What's funny is that some of the same people who agree with the 50 move rule also think 3 fold repetition should be a win for the perpetual checker LMAO!

The rules are most likely the same. Now that I am thinking about it, what do you mean with an informal game? Earlier you were talking about games outside FIDE tournaments, but those can have some significance like tournaments in chess clubs. If the game is really informal, then players may not bother to notate the moves. In that case it is practically impossible to use the 50 move rule and 3-fold repetition in all situations. You can only claim a draw due to the 50 move rule, if you are required to notate the moves.

Which is why they introduced the 75 move rule, in order for an arbiter to enter also in competitions where the players don't keep score of the game. As for games in club tournaments, if they're rated (for national or FIDE rating), they're likely to be covered by FIDE's competition rules.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what types of situations MARattigan is referring to when he says that majority of games played are outside the auspices of FIDE and yet the 50 move rule can be applied. As you say, if you don't keep score, how can you claim anything under the 50 move rule? I dare say that the majority of all games played without FIDE getting involved are either played online or offline in informal settings (such as the chess hustlers in Central Park, NYC). In the first case, online sites tend to have some sort of automatic rule in place (so hard to waive or change), and offline I guess keeping score is a rarity.

The old Rules of Play and the old Basic Rules that included the 50 move rule did not require players to notate moves. They simply said that a player could claim a draw after 50 moves by both sides without a capture or pawn move.

I've never played a game that was drawn under the 50 move rule, formal or informal, but I have been in informal games where both players are counting (but not annotating) the moves.

Repetition can certainly be awkward to claim when the pieces are  physical, the moves are not recorded and the repetitions are far apart. These could no doubt also be missed in tournament games - the triple repetition move is optional. But anyhow the topic is as at the top of the page.

I waas playing a game in a nationals in California. I had 4/4 and i was heading into the fifth round. I matched against the other person who was 4/4, and it went blah blah blah and the blah blah blah until he was up a knight and a bishop. Nothing else on the board. I started counting 50 moves, and 3 MOVES before checkmate I claimed the 50 move rule. So id vote no on a new rule for 75 move rule .

@BonTheCat

To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what types of situations MARattigan is referring to when he says that majority of games played are outside the auspices of FIDE and yet the 50 move rule can be applied. As you say, if you don't keep score, how can you claim anything under the 50 move rule? I dare say that the majority of all games played without FIDE getting involved are either played online or offline in informal settings (such as the chess hustlers in Central Park, NYC). In the first case, online sites tend to have some sort of automatic rule in place (so hard to waive or change), and offline I guess keeping score is a rarity.

I'm not trying to say that the majority of games are played outside the auspices of FIDE. On the contrary I'm saying that the tacit assumption in friendly games is that FIDE (basic) rules apply. If I have referred to such games where the 50 move rule applies I was probably intending to refer to games since the establishment of FIDE and prior to 2017. Because of lack of publicity for the change it's likely that the majority of friendly games are still played under the (incorrect) assumption that the 50 move rule is in effect, The players would only find out about the change if they actually consulted the handbook (e.g. to resolve a dispute about whether both players or only one needs to have made 50 moves for the rule to apply).

Online sites of course have an automatic rule, but I think according to FIDE they're not actually playing by the rules. They are in fact playing a game similar to chess. The same is true when I play any of my chess programs but in that case I simply reset the 50 move counter and carry on. These days the behaviour of the chess programs is a design bug (courtesy of FIDE). Resetting the 50 move counter is not at all ideal in any case because it generally resets the repetition rule and chess programs can play lines close to the 50 move rule that they wouldn't in its absence.

As for offline games, if they're informal the 50 move rule doesn't apply. In the old days, or if you haven't heard that FIDE have changed the rules, you don't need to take the moves down, you just count.

Well obviously the losing side is going to be the one to want to claim! It's a way to get out of a lost position. I can usually do the knight and bishop mate in 37-41 moves from the hardest positions. Maybe the new rule should also take into account the number of pieces on the board. Like 100 for 4 pieces, 200 for 5..etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD79FsqoqKM

This is what 50 and 75 move rule are for

I thought that's what the dead position rule was for.

(Or agreed draw rule if you have to play it on chess.com.)

Depends on the specific position...I believe its fine as it is for a general approach and only in specific cases more moves may be needed

In my games (OTB) I 've been helped by this rule a couple of times so my opinion is subjective

But 75 moves is a lot -especially in case your opponent is a stubborn who tries to win an opposite colour bishop endgame with equal pawns😂-