You don't need an opening reportoire until you hit 2000 ELO - ture or false ?

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Elubas
fissionfowl wrote:
zborg wrote:

Play the Hippo or the Modern Defense, with both colors, and save your 200+ posts.

You have to play something.  So learn one universal opening system and play it with both colors.  End of Story.

Or start a mindless thread, and collect half-baked comments, and mutiple sideline arguments along the way.  Your choice.

Yeah, because there's no middle ground between Elubas and "Play the Hippo or Modern defense with both colours".

Haha. I think zborg just takes the first opening that comes to his head and writes it down. Since this way he can go on auto-pilot and doesn't need to figure out if what he says actually makes any sense, it's easier on his head :)

bgianis

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/lies-about-improving?page=1#

CJ_P

Knowing the position types you like and how to get to them is priceless, know the Lopez like I do is over kill. You have to have some ideas of how to get where you want to be or your just gonna sit there reinventing what's already known.

zborg

No, you don't need extensive opening knowledge to play the first 20 moves of a chess game.  But you do need a Minimum Repetoire.

The thread you are currently reading is chockablock with blather and obsfucation from windbags like @Elubas.  This despite the fact the @Elubas is a relatively good chess player.  So What.

After 240+ posts, this thread scarcely begins to provide the intelligent reader with an answer to the question being raised.

The thread below contains information about opening repetoires, as well as entertainment and jokes along the way --

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/opening-theory-and-vegetarianism-are-both-overated

Your choice.  Keep reading blather, or focus on the core issues.

On balance, a good "universal" repetoire book is all you need, until you reach the top 10 percent of the rating distribution.  Very Simple.

If you want more than that.  Be prepared for a lot more time and study, and a lot more books as well.

End of Story.  Smile

TheGreatOogieBoogie
pawnwhacker wrote:

There is far too much rubbish about how openings are essentially unimportant.

 

I hear "truisms" all the time that are cheesy at best. Not only about chess but in religions and politics.

 

Are there no critical thinkers to be found?

 

Well, I know there are. Unfortuneately, damn few. Most people are on auto pilot.

 

Of course opening study matters, but knowing a bunch of Berlin Defense lines 20 moves deep doesn't mean anything if you drop pieces to simple tactics or don't know why certain theory moves are good. 

 

In annotated master games they describe various ideas behind their openings and plans. For studying the opening I've found it best to make a training database in Chessbase, sometimes even inputting variations and text from books.  I hear Chessbase opening encyclopedia is good but don't know if the annotations are just Informant symbols. 

 

 

 

PossibleOatmeal

In other words, studying openings is good.  Studying openings poorly is bad.  Just like the middle game and endgames.

Got it.

PigsOn7th

false

PigsOn7th

I have an opening repotoire I am 1900

shell_knight
SmyslovFan wrote:

When Jesse Kraai was a kid, he would play all comers in 5-1 blitz. He knew all the most popular openings at least ten moves deep, and often beat his opponents in the opening. 

Don't believe what these people say, believe what they do.

Go ahead and tell us then, what did they do?

What some master kid does in 5 minutes games isn't very relevant to what U2000 players should do to win more tournament games at the U2000 level.

What do these guys do?  Go to any club and have your local 1500 players give you a lesson on the 15th move of some Najdorf line and I think you'll figure it out.  Especially when on move 16 they make it clear they have utterly no idea what's going on.

shell_knight
pawpatrol wrote:

In other words, studying openings is good.  Studying openings poorly is bad.  Just like the middle game and endgames.

Got it.

Right.

But what the "this is how you study openings" people are essentially saying (and they're right) is to study the middlegame... study the middlegame positions that your openings get into.

PossibleOatmeal

Yes, part of studying the opening correctly is learning the results of the opening.

ParadoxOfNone
shell_knight wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

When Jesse Kraai was a kid, he would play all comers in 5-1 blitz. He knew all the most popular openings at least ten moves deep, and often beat his opponents in the opening. 

Don't believe what these people say, believe what they do.

Go ahead and tell us then, what did they do?

What some master kid does in 5 minutes games isn't very relevant to what U2000 players should do to win more tournament games at the U2000 level.

What do these guys do?  Go to any club and have your local 1500 players give you a lesson on the 15th move of some Najdorf line and I think you'll figure it out.  Especially when on move 16 they make it clear they have utterly no idea what's going on.

I doubt the 1500ish USCF players at the club I was going to and playing with, know the Najdorf that deeply...

shell_knight

At the U2000 level I'd argue that studying "the results of the opening" comprises 90% or more of useful "opening study."

shell_knight
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
shell_knight wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

When Jesse Kraai was a kid, he would play all comers in 5-1 blitz. He knew all the most popular openings at least ten moves deep, and often beat his opponents in the opening. 

Don't believe what these people say, believe what they do.

Go ahead and tell us then, what did they do?

What some master kid does in 5 minutes games isn't very relevant to what U2000 players should do to win more tournament games at the U2000 level.

What do these guys do?  Go to any club and have your local 1500 players give you a lesson on the 15th move of some Najdorf line and I think you'll figure it out.  Especially when on move 16 they make it clear they have utterly no idea what's going on.

I doubt the 1500ish USCF players at the club I was going to and playing with, know the Najdorf that deeply...

Sure, most don't.  My point was just that there are class players who spend money on opening books and have a deep repertoire, yet after years they remain relatively weak players.

To be fair to smyslovfan I agree with his other posts I came across as I skimmed the topic.

TheGreatOogieBoogie
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
shell_knight wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

When Jesse Kraai was a kid, he would play all comers in 5-1 blitz. He knew all the most popular openings at least ten moves deep, and often beat his opponents in the opening. 

Don't believe what these people say, believe what they do.

Go ahead and tell us then, what did they do?

What some master kid does in 5 minutes games isn't very relevant to what U2000 players should do to win more tournament games at the U2000 level.

What do these guys do?  Go to any club and have your local 1500 players give you a lesson on the 15th move of some Najdorf line and I think you'll figure it out.  Especially when on move 16 they make it clear they have utterly no idea what's going on.

I doubt the 1500ish USCF players at the club I was going to and playing with, know the Najdorf that deeply...

 

You'd be surprised.  Booked up fish have been a thing for decades here in America.  There's an old Soviet proverb that states, "Americans play the opening like grandmasters, the middlegame like experts, and the endgame like beginners"

 

 

 

ParadoxOfNone
shell_knight wrote:
ParadoxOfNone wrote:
shell_knight wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

When Jesse Kraai was a kid, he would play all comers in 5-1 blitz. He knew all the most popular openings at least ten moves deep, and often beat his opponents in the opening. 

Don't believe what these people say, believe what they do.

Go ahead and tell us then, what did they do?

What some master kid does in 5 minutes games isn't very relevant to what U2000 players should do to win more tournament games at the U2000 level.

What do these guys do?  Go to any club and have your local 1500 players give you a lesson on the 15th move of some Najdorf line and I think you'll figure it out.  Especially when on move 16 they make it clear they have utterly no idea what's going on.

I doubt the 1500ish USCF players at the club I was going to and playing with, know the Najdorf that deeply...

Sure, most don't.  My point was just that there are class players who spend money on opening books and have a deep repertoire, yet after years they remain relatively weak players.

To be fair to smyslovfan I agree with his other posts I came across as I skimmed the topic.

I tend to think by the time you reach 1500, you begin to realize your tactical and end game deficiencies.

colinwr
shell_knight wrote:
pawpatrol wrote:

In other words, studying openings is good.  Studying openings poorly is bad.  Just like the middle game and endgames.

Got it.

Right.

But what the "this is how you study openings" people are essentially saying (and they're right) is to study the middlegame... study the middlegame positions that your openings get into.

So how does one go about studying the typical middle games that ones opennings tend to get into and what is the focus of that study?

(Asking as I'm genuinely interested and have had quite a bit of difficulty finding resources that focus on the overally themes, strategy of certain openings, middle games etc.)

shell_knight

I definitely know some who are willing to give you a protracted opening lecture after a game...

Even if they allowed some minor but basic middlegame weaknesses, lose a few tempo and otherwise defend them poorly, and finish by voluntarily trading into a hopless endgame...

TheGreatOogieBoogie
aeriose wrote:
shell_knight wrote:
pawpatrol wrote:

In other words, studying openings is good.  Studying openings poorly is bad.  Just like the middle game and endgames.

Got it.

Right.

But what the "this is how you study openings" people are essentially saying (and they're right) is to study the middlegame... study the middlegame positions that your openings get into.

So how does one go about studying the typical middle games that ones opennings tend to get into and what is the focus of that study?

(Asking as I'm genuinely interested and have had quite a bit of difficulty finding resources that focus on the overally themes, strategy of certain openings, middle games etc.)

Soltis' Pawn Structure Chess is a good start.  Maybe just learn to recognize different imbalances then compose plans that revolve around them afterwards. 

Annotated master games in said openings can help.  Various books and Informants will have them.  If you have a certain chess hero then you can copy his openings and study his annotated game collection. 

shell_knight
aeriose wrote:
shell_knight wrote:
pawpatrol wrote:

In other words, studying openings is good.  Studying openings poorly is bad.  Just like the middle game and endgames.

Got it.

Right.

But what the "this is how you study openings" people are essentially saying (and they're right) is to study the middlegame... study the middlegame positions that your openings get into.

So how does one go about studying the typical middle games that ones opennings tend to get into and what is the focus of that study?

(Asking as I'm genuinely interested and have had quite a bit of difficulty finding resources that focus on the overally themes, strategy of certain openings, middle games etc.)

I like oogieboogie's answer.  Pick up some middlegame book to get all the necessary foundational stuff.  Although it's all about pawns, I second his recommendation of Soltis' book.  Annotated game collections are also excellent.  Not all the games will be of your prefered opening, but I think just for the (sometimes few) games that are, they're worth it.  The other games round out your chess understanding (and many times sidelines of one opening can get you into the ideas most often found after completely different openings).